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Mark W. Tonner
24-01-04, 02:03
[postings with pictures/information on surviving T16s split from the thread "Wartime T16 pictures (http://www.mapleleafup.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=8757)" by moderator]

Hanno;

Came across this picture while I was looking for something else.
Although it's not a wartime picture of a T16, it's the 7th Cdn Inf Bde Memorial in Eede, Holland.

Cheers :)

Hanno Spoelstra
29-01-04, 13:44
Originally posted by Mark W. Tonner
Although it's not a wartime picture of a T16, it's the 7th Cdn Inf Bde Memorial in Eede, Holland.
Ah yes, the T16 at Eede. The original National Monument (http://www.dfait-maeci.gc.ca/world/CanadaEuropa/monument/nl(ze(eede-en.asp) is a reminder of the day on which Queen Wilhelmina returned to the Netherlands. Later the T16 was added, I remember reading about it in the regional newspaper which must have been some 20 years back already. It is an ex-Swiss T16, acquired from a collector in Germany. The top has been welded shut to keep the rain out, but I don't know why that strange headboard was added. At the time I thought it was the wrong type of carrier to use as a memorial, I know better now of course :) Last time I saw this T16 was with Geoff in 2000, when we were doing a one-day tour of the Scheldt area.

Do you now if the 7th Cdn Inf Bde actually used T16 carriers?

Thanks,
Hanno

Mark W. Tonner
14-02-04, 01:43
Hanno;

It's not a wartime picture but: This is what happened to some of them eventually :(

Cheers :)

G166UC
14-02-04, 06:24
Mr. Tonner,
I don"t suppose this is a recent picture of a T-16 in a local junkyard? Those fenders are still pretty straight! If this vehicle still exists, I need some of the parts off of it! Let me guess; This picture was taken about 20 years ago, and the yard has since been scrapped and is now an apartment complex.
Keep on scrounging, Rod Shaver

Hanno Spoelstra
14-02-04, 21:25
Originally posted by Mark W. Tonner
It's not a wartime picture but: This is what happened to some of them eventually :(

Mark,

Like Rod, I'd like to know where & when this picture was taken. But just out of interest, not to scrounge parts - I'll leave that to Rod as he asked first :)

The T16 in your picture had a much easier retirement compared to the T16s I saw in Pounds Yard in 1985, these had tons of heavy scrap steel piled on top of them :(

Regards,
Hanno

Hanno Spoelstra
14-02-04, 21:27
I recently came across this T16 on display at the National Infantry Museum at Fort Benning, USA (http://www.infantry.army.mil/museum/off_site_tour/warehouse08.htm). This was a new one to me.

http://www.infantry.army.mil/museum/images/off_site/Dsc_0071_sm.jpg

Hanno Spoelstra
14-02-04, 21:35
Did the Polish Forces use T16s during WW2?

T16 at the "Muzeum Wojska Polskiego w Forcie IX", Warsaw, Poland:
http://history.serw.com.pl/muzeum/img/t16b.jpg
Source: http://history.serw.com.pl/muzeum/t16.html

Mark W. Tonner
14-02-04, 22:46
Originally posted by Hanno Spoelstra
Mark,

Like Rod, I'd like to know where & when this picture was taken. But just out of interest, not to scrounge parts - I'll leave that to Rod as he asked first :)

The T16 in your picture had a much easier retirement compared to the T16s I saw in Pounds Yard in 1985, these had tons of heavy scrap steel piled on top of them :(

Hi Guys;

The pictures are from Argentina, the junkyard one - no date; the two below: top one 1946-47 and the bottom one 1956, look at the vehicle on the left of this picture.

Have another picture from the Argentina Naval Museum to follow.

Cheers :)

Mark W. Tonner
14-02-04, 22:49
From the Argentina Naval Museum:

Cheers :)

Mark W. Tonner
14-02-04, 23:00
Bit of a follow-up regarding T16's in Argentina: In 1946-47 the Argentine government was able to procure hundreds of AFV's (including 302 T.16s, 280 for the Army and 24 for the "Infantería de Marina" (Marines). They carried 1x 7.65 model 1928 Colt water-cooled MG and 1x Madsen 7.65mm model 1927 MG. The Madsen was carried on a spintle mount. These carriers were US (Ford) built carriers, meant for "Lend Lease" and were British surplus stock disposed by the Belgians in Antwerp.

Cheers :)

Garry Shipton
15-02-04, 20:37
Originally posted by Hanno Spoelstra
Did the Polish Forces use T16s during WW2?

Hi Hanno,
As I post I look up at my C15 model"Little Hanno",which has all boxes on both sides.Happy New Year.By the way,how is the newborn doing??Haven'heard anything,since the birth!!AS to your question,did not the Polish Divsion as part of the Canadian 2nd Div at The Falaise gap have T16s??Something to look into!!
Garry

Hanno Spoelstra
15-02-04, 21:10
Originally posted by Garry Shipton
AS to your question,did not the Polish Divsion as part of the Canadian 2nd Div at The Falaise gap have T16s??Something to look into!!

Hi Garry, both boys are doing fine, thanks!

If you could find out more info re. the use of T16 by Polish forces - or any other Commonwealth forces - that would be great.

H.

Hanno Spoelstra
15-02-04, 21:14
T16 at the tank museum at Latrun, Israel.

New question: how many T16s were used by the Israeli defence Force? And when?

http://www.thetankmaster.com/IMAGES/AFV/LATURN/PART1/LATURN_018.jpg
Source: http://www.thetankmaster.com/ENGLISH/AFV/Latrun_02.asp

Hanno Spoelstra
15-02-04, 22:10
Originally posted by Mark W. Tonner
The pictures are from Argentina, the junkyard one - no date; the two below: top one 1946-47 and the bottom one 1956, look at the vehicle on the left of this picture.
Mark,

Argentina, hmm, interesting... well Rod, what about a trip down there? :)

More info and pictures on Argentinean T16s can be found here: TANKS! (http://mailer.fsu.edu/~akirk/tanks/) > Argentina (http://mailer.fsu.edu/~akirk/tanks/argentina/argentina.html)

Hanno

G166UC
16-02-04, 04:15
Hanno,
I heard the weather is great down in Argentina this time of the year! I would love to go down there and find them! Where did you find the picture of the T-16 at Latrune? I was there about 3 years ago but did not see the T-16. I saw several MkII carriers.
Talk to you soon, Rod

Geoff Winnington-Ball (RIP)
16-02-04, 04:33
Originally posted by Hanno Spoelstra
T16 at the tank museum at Latrun, Israel.

New question: how many T16s were used by the Israeli defence Force? And when?

Can't answer that exactly, Hanno, but I know from a veteran's account that Windsors were in WIDE use in Palestine immediately post war... this old gentleman (a driver) remembers getting shot at on patrol regularly, by BOTH sides! He's currently resident in South Africa and we email occasionally.

Mark W. Tonner
16-02-04, 16:20
Originally posted by Hanno Spoelstra
T16 at the tank museum at Latrun, Israel.

Hanno;

I have to agree with Rod, I've also been to the Israeli Armoured Corps Museum at Latrun and didn't see any T16's. The one in your post, I'm sure, is a No. 3 Mk II, if memory serves me correctly.

You asked: New question: how many T16s were used by the Israeli defence Force? And when?

At the start of the War of Independence in 1948, the Egyptian Infantry had 298 Universal Carriers and a number of Loyd Carriers were employed in the towing of their 6 pdr A/T guns, most of these Universal and Loyd carriers were captured and used by the Israelis, although, by the time of the 1956 Arab-Israeli conflict, they had been phased out of service in the IDF.

Most of what the Israelis where able to purchase prior to/during and immediately after the War of Independence came from Czech sources and did not include UC's of any type.

Hope this answers your question.

Examples of Captured Universal and Loyd Carriers in Israeli service:

Cheers :)

Hanno Spoelstra
20-02-04, 12:09
Originally posted by G166UC
Where did you find the picture of the T-16 at Latrune? I was there about 3 years ago but did not see the T-16. I saw several MkII carriers.

Originally posted by Mark W. Tonner
I have to agree with Rod, I've also been to the Israeli Armoured Corps Museum at Latrun and didn't see any T16's. The one in your post, I'm sure, is a No. 3 Mk II, if memory serves me correctly.


Well, all I can say is this picture was recently (12 Feb. 2004) added to the Tankmaster (http://www.thetankmaster.com/ENGLISH/AFV/Latrun_02.asp) site and that it does show a T16, doesn't it? I realise that it doesn't automatically mean it was actually used by the IDF, as the museum is trading AFVs with other countries (like the Sheridan).

Hanno

Hanno Spoelstra
20-02-04, 13:26
Originally posted by Geoff Winnington-Ball
Can't answer that exactly, Hanno, but I know from a veteran's account that Windsors were in WIDE use in Palestine immediately post war... this old gentleman (a driver) remembers getting shot at on patrol regularly, by BOTH sides! He's currently resident in South Africa and we email occasionally.
Geoff, any information of this sort is welcome. Try to get some more details out of him and post it here.

Originally posted by Mark W. Tonner
At the start of the War of Independence in 1948, the Egyptian Infantry had 298 Universal Carriers and a number of Loyd Carriers were employed in the towing of their 6 pdr A/T guns, most of these Universal and Loyd carriers were captured and used by the Israelis, although, by the time of the 1956 Arab-Israeli conflict, they had been phased out of service in the IDF.
Might be worth checking if any of the Universal Carriers the Egyptians got were T16s:
1) According to the picture shown below, the French had T16s.
2) The French supplied AFVs to the Egyptians.
Who can add 1) and 2) together?

Hanno

http://www.chars-francais.net/new/images/stories/galery/1941_bren-carrier/bren-carrier-006.jpg
Source: http://www.chars-francais.net/archives/bren-carrier.htm

Hanno Spoelstra
20-02-04, 13:48
T16 T103519 at the Virginia Museum of Military Vehicles (http://www.vmmv.org/)

http://tanks2go.com/United_Kingdom/images/UKbren.jpg
Source: http://tanks2go.com/United_Kingdom/UKbren.htm

G166UC
20-02-04, 19:39
Hanno,
The T-16 pictured at the Virginia Military Museum is owned by Allen Coors, and originally came from the Budge collection. It is one of the few original T-16s i n the country. What I mean is that it was not modified by the Swiss. It has all the original boxes, fuel tanks, gun mounts etc. as used by the British or Canadian Military. Some of the gun mounts in the T-16s were changed by the British when they recieved them. I guess the original factory brackets were not suitable for their purposes. I have never seen a T-16 with all of the original factory installed stowage brackets for the Bren Guns in the rear compartment, or the ones in the drivers compartment for the piat and bren guns.
Why did the French paint the spare roadwheel white?
Rod Shaver

Hanno Spoelstra
21-02-04, 22:31
Originally posted by G166UC
I heard the weather is great down in Argentina this time of the year! I would love to go down there and find them!
Rod, there is at least one guy in Argentina interested in T16s - if you look closely in the pic below you'll see one. Possibly worthwhile to try to contact this collector?

http://www.aacvm.com.ar/img/foexpoclasica.jpg
Source: http://www.aacvm.com.ar/albumfotos.php

G166UC
23-02-04, 17:46
Hanno,
Go back to the Military vehicle Club of Argentina web site and go to the set of photos labeled "Encuentro Solidario 2002" There are some good photos of a T-16 (HIghly accessorized)
Rod

Hanno Spoelstra
23-02-04, 18:01
Originally posted by G166UC
Go back to the Military vehicle Club of Argentina web site and go to the set of photos labeled "Encuentro Solidario 2002" There are some good photos of a T-16 (HIghly accessorized)
Rod, thanks for the heads-up, it has been quite a while since I last had a proper look at that site.

I wonder if this "full option" version is authentic for the Argentine Army, or if this was artistic license on part of the restorer (like the proverbial .50 cal MG in the back of every other jeep :))

http://www.aacvm.com.ar/cpg132/albums/escobar2002/normal_L_ES05.jpg
Source: A.A.C.V.M. - Exposición "Encuentro Solidario" - Marzo 2002 (http://www.aacvm.com.ar/cpg132/thumbnails.php?album=14)

Hanno Spoelstra
15-04-04, 13:37
Originally posted by Mark W. Tonner
Bit of a follow-up regarding T16's in Argentina:
See Universal Carrier T16 en la IMARA (http://www.fuerzasnavales.com/t16.html) for the history of T16s in Argentina (try here (http://world.altavista.com/babelfish/tr) for a simple translation). Was this the source of the pictures you posted here, Mark?

H.

Mark W. Tonner
15-04-04, 13:49
Originally posted by Hanno Spoelstra
Was this the source of the pictures you posted here, Mark?
For two of the pictures in Argentina, yes.

Cheers :)

Richard Notton
15-04-04, 21:57
Originally posted by Hanno Spoelstra
Rod, thanks for the heads-up, it has been quite a while since I last had a proper look at that site.

I wonder if this "full option" version is authentic for the Argentine Army, or if this was artistic license on part of the restorer (like the proverbial .50 cal MG in the back of every other jeep :))

McSpool, you'd know better than I; this picture I had to download and then tweak to see the roadwheel arrangement. Is there something strange about the layout, I thought the springs always faced "outwards" on a T16, not the same way.
:confused:

R.

Richard Farrant
15-04-04, 22:32
Originally posted by FV623
Is there something strange about the layout, I thought the springs always faced "outwards" on a T16, not the same way.
:confused:


R.
You are very observant, just checked my T16 TM and the rear bogie is assembled wrong way around, probably an apprentice job, they would get the blame anyhow.

Richard

Richard Notton
15-04-04, 23:50
Originally posted by Richard Farrant
You are very observant, just checked my T16 TM and the rear bogie is assembled wrong way around, probably an apprentice job, they would get the blame anyhow. Well, that's comforting to know, not really observant as such, but its the only way a non-expert "Bren Carrier" person like me can readily identify a T16 from the others, the Windsor especially which does have the springs arranged like this; the picture as sent just showed the hint of something different and I just had to see what was really going on.

The apprentice theory is a good one, do you think perhaps this is why Bovington's KK has the right side tracks on backwards, dissimilar roadwheels side to side, and hacksawed-off rear bars? Since it was captured undamaged after some 2 weeks service with the Wehrmacht and pristine when originally placed in the museum, this is strange. I digress, sorry.

R.

Hanno Spoelstra
16-04-04, 22:36
Originally posted by Richard Farrant
You are very observant, just checked my T16 TM and the rear bogie is assembled wrong way around, probably an apprentice job, they would get the blame anyhow.
An apprentice job indeed, that is what I first thought as well.

However, earlier this week I read Universal Carrier T16 en la IMARA (http://www.fuerzasnavales.com/magazine/t16.html). According to this article, in 1947 between ten to twenty T16E2s were acquired from the US by the Argentine Marines. The T16E2 was slightly longer (13'6" vs. 12'11" for the T16) and the bogies were moved rearward with the rear bogie being reversed. There were other detail differences, but popular belief has it the T16E2 did not get past the prototype phase. If however the Argentine Marines indeed got a batch of T16E2s, the one pictured here could possibly the only surviving T16E2...

H.

Richard Notton
17-04-04, 00:35
Originally posted by Hanno Spoelstra
An apprentice job indeed, that is what I first thought as well.

However, earlier this week I read Universal Carrier T16 en la IMARA (http://www.fuerzasnavales.com/t16.html).

. . . .the rear bogie being reversed. There were other detail differences More fascinating by the second and I note with personal shame that not only can McSpool speak Dutch, English and most other mainland Euro languages together with fluent Sherman, CMP and T16, but I need to add Spanish to the list now as well. . . . . . .

R.

Hanno Spoelstra
17-04-04, 21:40
Originally posted by FV623
but I need to add Spanish to the list now as well. . . . . . .
Well, I have a friend (http://world.altavista.com/babelfish/tr) who speaks Spanish quite well...:o

Hanno Spoelstra
26-05-04, 13:59
T16 pictured near Port-en-Bessin, France, June 1994.
Owner unknown.

http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/lsm/dhmg/images/mud1b.jpg
Source: http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/lsm/dhmg/mud1s.html

Hanno Spoelstra
22-07-04, 20:23
T251143, pictured in Mons, Belgium, 2003 - see AFV BE > Il était une fois le pas de Calais libéré 2003 (http://www.afvbe.com/component/option,com_zoom/Itemid,26/catid,24/).

H.

Crewman
29-03-05, 14:55
Originally posted by Hanno Spoelstra
Did the Polish Forces use T16s during WW2?
Originally posted by Garry Shipton
...did not the Polish Divsion as part of the Canadian 2nd Div at The Falaise gap have T16s? Something to look into!!
Originally posted by Hanno Spoelstra
If you could find out more info re. the use of T16 by Polish forces - or any other Commonwealth forces - that would be great.

Hi friends,

Most likely, if only, several T16s served in the Polish Armed Forces but they were single vehicles.

The only one confirmed episode is the presence of T16s in slightly exotic Polish military structure in France. It was not related to UK-based Polish Government and its Polish Armed Forces with their London HQ. Too long and too complicated to explain it briefly. There was a time in 1944 when Poland had two Governments -- one UK-based (legal); the other one Poland-based (illegal). The T16s belonged to so-called Zgrupowanie Piechoty Polskiej we Francji, or ZPPwF, (The Polish Infantry Group in France) related to Poland-based Government. It was strongly related to French Communistic Party that was tolerated by the Allies and even equipped by them. More or less than 10 T16s served in the ZPPwF. In February 1945 the ZPPwF became the part of the French 1st Army.

Source:
Janusz Magnuski
Wozy bojowe Polskich Si³ Zbrojnych 1940-1946
(The Combat Vehicles of the Polish Armed Forces 1940-1946)
Wydawnictwo Lampart, Warszawa 1998
(Lampart Publishing House, Warsaw 1998)
ISBN 83-86776-39-0

About the author Mr. Janusz Magnuski
http://www.explore-biography.com/scientists_and_engineers/J/Janusz_Magnuski.html

Hanno Spoelstra
29-03-05, 15:20
Originally posted by Crewman
More or less than 10 T16s served in the ZPPwF. In February 1945 the ZPPwF became the part of the French 1st Army. Crewman, thank you for this information!

Regards,
Hanno

Jon Skagfeld
30-03-05, 00:41
Originally posted by Mark W. Tonner
Hi Guys;

The pictures are from Argentina, the junkyard one - no date; the two below: top one 1946-47 and the bottom one 1956, look at the vehicle on the left of this picture.

Have another picture from the Argentina Naval Museum to follow.

Cheers :) look at the vehicle on the left of this picture

Hey, a WIRE-5 "Gin Palace"!

Crewman
30-03-05, 22:07
Originally posted by Hanno Spoelstra
If you could find out more info re. the use of T16 by Polish forces - or any other Commonwealth forces - that would be great.
Hi,

The info literally from today. I received today the brochure-document from London-based Polish Institute and Gen. Sikorsky’s Museum. It is dedicated to logistics system of the Polish 1 Armoured Division (ETO). The brochure informs that the Division used T16s in its quartermaster companies but there is lack of info how many.

Source:
Kronika oddzia³ów zaopatrywania 1. Dywizji Pancernej
(The Chronicle of Quartermaster Companies of the 1st Armoured Division)
Instytut Polski i Muzeum im. gen. Sikorskiego, London 1995
ISBN 0-902508-25-3

And its cover
http://img33.exs.cx/img33/5207/kronika3ur.jpg

Best

C. :)

Hanno Spoelstra
14-04-05, 23:34
Originally posted by G166UC
Where did you find the picture of the T-16 at Latrune? I was there about 3 years ago but did not see the T-16. I saw several MkII carriers.

Originally posted by Mark W. Tonner
I have to agree with Rod, I've also been to the Israeli Armoured Corps Museum at Latrun and didn't see any T16's. The one in your post, I'm sure, is a No. 3 Mk II, if memory serves me correctly.
Better picture of the T16 at Latrun, Israel (source (http://www.eurofoto.no/show_album.php?aid=664272)).

Hanno Spoelstra
01-07-05, 11:25
Another survivor in Argentina, this T16 is in the Museo del Ejército Argentino.

http://www.surfacezero.com/g503/data/796/medium/Bren_Carrier_enMuseo_EA_CV_abr02_JPG.jpg
Source (http://saorbats.com.ar/GaleriaSaorbats/MuseoEA/fotos%20museo%20ejercito%20argentino.htm)

Hanno Spoelstra
01-07-05, 11:34
Originally posted by Hanno Spoelstra
in 1947 between ten to twenty T16E2s were acquired from the US by the Argentine Marines. The T16E2 was slightly longer (13'6" vs. 12'11" for the T16) and the bogies were moved rearward with the rear bogie being reversed. There were other detail differences, but popular belief has it the T16E2 did not get past the prototype phase. If however the Argentine Marines indeed got a batch of T16E2s, the one pictured here could possibly the only surviving T16E2...
Here's a nice side view of a surviving T16E2, clearly showing the details noted above.
It is a real surprise to find a surviving example of a type of vehicle, which according to common belief was not manufactured. Better yet, it is for sale (http://foros.tecnonexo.com/read.php?f=13&i=3602&t=3602)!

H.

http://www.surfacezero.com/g503/data/796/carrier_2.jpg
source (http://www.aacvm.com.ar/cpg132/thumbnails.php?album=23)

Hanno Spoelstra
19-10-05, 11:42
Another survivor in Argentina, this one is a gate gaurd at Escuadrón de Exploracion Caballería Blindado 1 "Coronel Isidoro Suarez".
Source: http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?t=56352

G166UC
10-11-05, 00:16
Hanno,
I don't have the pictures entered in my computer yet, but I finally got the six T-16s I bought earlier this summer. This is the last of the group that Southeastern equipment had about 12 years ago. A gentleman bought these just before the rest got scrapped. They are a little rough but definitely restorable. Why don't you come over to sunny Arizona this winter and take one home with you? It's only money! i will try to post some pictures soon.
Rod Shaver

Hanno Spoelstra
02-03-06, 19:16
Here's a pic of a survivor located at the Indiana Military History Museum, Vincennes, Indiana, USA.

Is this one of the SECO log skidder conversions?

H.

Source: http://www.pointmanspage.com/gallery/IMHM

Hanno Spoelstra
30-05-06, 12:23
Who knows where this T16 survivor is located? I recall seeing photos of it before, I'm pretty sure it is in Canada. But where?

See more pics at http://www.primeportal.net/apc/daryl_nightingale/t-16_universal_carrier/

Thanks,
Hanno

http://www.surfacezero.com/g503/data/796/medium/t-16_universal_carrier_16_of_19.jpg

Hanno Spoelstra
28-06-06, 17:42
Originally posted by Snowtractor in Gweru Military museum (http://www.mapleleafup.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=6379)
A T-16 if I am not mistaken
http://www.sa-transport.co.za/military/army/zimmil_bren_carrier_ra.jpg Surprisingly, this "Zimbabwean Bren Carrier" survives in the Gweru Military Museum in Zimbabwe, Africa.

Can anyone tell if/when the T16 was in military service in Zimbabwe?!? Reportedly, the Swiss Army sold 300 T16s to Biafra (http://www.mapleleafup.org/~tcp/t16history.html) via a dealer in Toronto in 1965; could it be (some of) these ended up in Zimbabwe?

Thanks,
Hanno

Terry Gaebel
29-06-06, 05:05
Originally posted by Hanno Spoelstra
Who knows where this T16 survivor is located? I recall seeing photos of it before, I'm pretty sure it is in Canada. But where? Hanno this looks like the one that is in Fort McLoud AB. A picture was in the Convoy web site

Terry

Hanno Spoelstra
29-06-06, 10:43
Originally posted by Terry Gaebel
Hanno this looks like the one that is in Fort McLoud AB. A picture was in the Convoy web site Yes, that must be the one. Thanks Terry!

H.

Alex van de Wetering
30-08-06, 10:39
Last weekend I visited the "Tanks in Town" event in Mons, Belgium and among the vehicles, was a T16 carrier. Sadly I wasn't able to take any pictures, but this seems like the same carrier:

http://www.tanksintown.be/TIT%202005%20PHOTO%20%209%20-.jpg
Source: www.tanksintown.be

On the way back home I visited the "T16" Canadian monument in Eede.

regards,

Alex

Alex van de Wetering
30-08-06, 10:42
The T16 of the Eede-monument in its present condition....

I was quite surprised to see that some of the dashboard and interior fittings were still in place...

G166UC
30-08-06, 19:45
Hanno,
It was good to see you at Beltring this year. I had a great time. It looks like the T-16 in Africa still has all the standard British mods on it. I don't see anything that looks Swiss on it.
Just to let everyone know, all the T-16s I had have been sold.
See Ya, Rod

Hanno Spoelstra
30-08-06, 20:12
Originally posted by G166UC
Hanno,
It was good to see you at Beltring this year. I had a great time. It looks like the T-16 in Africa still has all the standard British mods on it. I don't see anything that looks Swiss on it. Yes Rod, it was good to see you again and chat T16s and other armour! Have you given any further thought to your plan to ship over your T16 for the Arnhem commemorations? Let me know, I'd be glad to help on this side of the pond.

Thanks for IDing that Zimbabwean T16 as being ex-British. Must have come there through SA from stocks supplied by the UK?

H.

Hanno Spoelstra
30-08-06, 20:17
Originally posted by Alex van de Wetering
Last weekend I visited the "Tanks in Town" event in Mons, Belgium and among the vehicles, was a T16 carrier. Sadly I wasn't able to take any pictures, but this seems like the same carrier: Thanks Alex, and yes it is indeed the same carrier. T16 s/n 11644 T103640 (http://www.geocities.com/t16carrier/t16_sn11644.html) lives in Belgium, it can also be seen at Wings & Wheels.

Hanno Spoelstra
30-08-06, 20:19
Originally posted by Alex van de Wetering
The T16 of the Eede-monument in its present condition....

I was quite surprised to see that some of the dashboard and interior fittings were still in place... Good to see it repainted! I take it the open top is still welded shut? Pity it still sports that silly "heardboard"...

H.

Alex van de Wetering
31-08-06, 10:02
Yes Hanno. It is still welded shut, the rear completely and the front compartment from about halfway.

It looked like it had been spray-painted (all-over) not too long ago.

Alex

Hanno Spoelstra
10-10-06, 22:58
Fred Ropkey's T16: Ropkey Armor Museum, Crawfordville, USA (source (http://com-central.net/index.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=5113)).

H.

Hanno Spoelstra
05-03-07, 13:19
Though not listed on their inventory, this was T16 pictured by militarymodelling.com at the Wheatcroft Collection:

http://www.mapleleafup.org/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=69615 (http://www.mapleleafup.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=69913)

Hanno Spoelstra
05-03-07, 13:28
T16 at Eden Camp (http://www.edencamp.co.uk/), UK (pic source (http://www.hmvf.co.uk/smf/index.php?topic=3594.msg29236;boardseen#new)).

Hanno Spoelstra
30-08-07, 12:00
A T16 found rusting at Hartbeesport zoo in South Africa.

Source: http://www.69dude.co.uk/gallery2/main.php?g2_itemId=248

Hanno Spoelstra
15-05-09, 21:37
One of a few T16's surviving in France at the ASSOCIATION DE SAUVEGARDE DU PATRIMOINE HISTORIQUE MILITAIRE (http://www.asphm.com/vehicules/universal_carrier_t16/universal_carrier_t16.html). They have quite an extensive collection of vehicles.

According to the data plate it is s/n 10274 and WD no. T102186-S. For some reason it is marked USA 4074468.

pablo50cal
30-05-09, 19:05
1) another pictures of my carrier
now I need to remuve the engine because its making bad noise
I need to change the metals

2) two years ago

3) another place araund here , but dont make ilusions the people ho have tree carrier dont sale .

4) my carrier

5) dont forget me
pablo from argentina t16 n13588 :p

horsa
28-09-09, 16:26
T-16 on display at a muesum in South Africa. A friend posted the shots but I don't know where it is right now. Will update this posting with details once they are known.

It appears the engine exhaust is being routed out the side of the armour hull.

centi521.
28-09-09, 21:06
us t-16 swiss version ;)

he's one of 3 t-16 in switzerland (2 have the army and this one ;) )

RichardT10829
02-10-09, 15:50
The two that Kevin Weatcroft has,,, are for sale from what he told me they are shot up pretty bad and have no internals at all but can be yours for £4500 (this was two years back when i started looking for a carrier)

Rich

Jason Ginn
15-10-09, 04:41
The Swords and Ploughshares Museum near Ottawa has a cut T-16 in its collection. Mike may be able to add some info but i alsways thought that this one had some interesting features such as the towing attachment and fenders/steps on the sides. I remember John Cameron, a one-time shareholder in this carrier, saying that it was found in the Ottawa area but I can't remember where. It has a been fitted with a newer Chevrolet in-line six with 3-speed trans mounted to the input shaft of the original Ford trans, and it seems that the tracks are on backwards.

I don't think that i've ever seen carrier wheels with round holes in them, are they T-16 specific?

j

horsa
15-10-09, 04:53
The angle iron rails at the edge above the tracks would identify this one as having been in one of the Canadian Infantry Division's Support Battalions as part of a 4.2" mortar platoon. Course they didn't have wooden bodies back then :)

I've also never seen wheels with the round holes so not sure what they originated on unless they are late patten T-16 solid disc wheels with lightening holes bored into them. Or holes bored into them to make them appear closed to the stright spoke or curved spoke patterns.

horsa
23-10-09, 16:21
Going through old photos from a trip to Normandy done 5-6 years ago, I came across some of a T-16 in one of the small museums. Its been restored and repainted so maybe this should really be in the Surviving T-16s message thread.

Sign indicates a British T-16 from the 2nd Canadian Infantry Division. Markings at the bottom have FS and July 1944. Not sure if that indicates when it landed, was destroyed or something else. Anyone familiar with French abbreviations like this?

Alex van de Wetering
23-10-09, 20:10
David,

Great pictures! I recognize the museum.....it's the Bayeux memorial before the owner of most of the material removed his belongings after an argument with the museum staff. :bang:

Alex

Maurice Donckers
26-10-09, 09:30
The Carrier in Bayeux , came from Pounds , and was not a left over from the battles , They also got the M10 and Churchill from there.

Hanno Spoelstra
14-09-10, 00:01
T16 in the Militärmuseum Full, Zwitserland - see www.militaer-museum.ch. Reportedly a new addition to the Museum's inventory, it will require a full restoration (one of its previous owners tried to paint it in the Caunter camouflage scheme?).

http://www.flickr.com/photos/massimofoti/4673397105/in/set-72157624088553191/

Hanno Spoelstra
28-11-10, 20:30
T16-based supply vehicle / runabout at Port-aux-Français, French Southern and Antarctic Lands.

http://www.panoramio.com/photo/7219744

Must be the most Southernly located Universal Carrier?!?

H.

Lynn Eades
29-11-10, 07:02
The Falklands island one is at approx 51 degrees south. (More down around the corner than 49 degrees south)

Hanno Spoelstra
06-06-11, 18:32
T16 in the Biafran Musuem, Umuahia Ibeku, Abia, Nigeria.

Looks like an ex-Swiss example with raised sides. Battle damage in rear right hand corner?

andrew honychurch
08-06-11, 00:24
i dont think this one has been posted on here before. Could be for sale if anyone is interested pm me.

horsa
08-06-11, 00:43
That carrier was build shortly after Mark's that never left the USA and still has the early U.S. production features seen in the manuals. Stuff like the angled mount for a Boys A/T rifle in the front windows instead of the later block of wood bolted in place. And it still has the original pattern gun mounts welded to the inner hull walls that could hold a rifle or a Thompson SMG. Almost every carrier had these removed and replaced with the pair located in slightly different places for holding a rifle or a Bren. If you ever wondered what the curved weld marks were on the hull under the paint, this was it. It also retains the early large rear internal locker and never had wading skirts added to the sides.

Note it has a British TD number so these must have been provided by the War Department and stenciled onto the hulls as they came off the production line in the U.S.A.

Mark sold this carrier last year and Brennon here in Texas owns it now.

andrew honychurch
08-06-11, 08:26
interesting stuff David. I had seen some pictures of this Carrier which is very exciting. Quite a rarity, I wonder if there were any others that never left the US. My Carrier is numbered T101616 from memory, no "D" any idea why that would be? I also have the large boxes in the rear as does the Carrier in my post above

tankbarrell
08-06-11, 09:40
The TD number is the US Ordnance serial number, nothing to do with the British army. The T number, as in T101616 is the British WD number.

andrew honychurch
08-06-11, 10:00
thanks Adrian. most kind

colin jones
08-06-11, 11:04
I too have a T16 here in Adelaide and as far as I know there is'nt any others in Aust or is there !
Colin.

horsa
08-06-11, 16:52
I'd understood the "T" was used on standard duty carriers and "TD" was used on carriers assigned for towing guns. I haven't seen many original T-16 data plates still mounted to vehicles with their original markings to compare.

My carrier had the TD number painted on it but no data plates to cross reference. The markings were done with an etching white paint as seen on the early T-16 and they ate through the primer and into the hull itself. We could still read it even after having the hull chemically stripped.

tankbarrell
08-06-11, 17:06
As indicated on that data plate, the TD number is the US Ordnance number and is issued regardless of end user.

The T number is issued by the British Ministry of Supply at point of order and T is merely the prefix for tracked armoured vehicles other than SP guns (S) and amphibians (P).

andrew honychurch
08-06-11, 18:51
given that my T16 data plate is missing, but I know where the date of manufacture is stamped, and I have the T number after sanding back the paint, is there any way I can find the other numbers out? I have a new set of repro data plates that I would like to stamp up and wondered whether there are any other numbers stamped on the hull, or indeed whether US records exist, either with the Ford Company Archive or the US Military or am I banging my head against a brick wall with that one?

David, if the TD meant for towing artillery, what would have defined that in the way they were made, as all tow hitch equipment was added in the UK along with the wading fixings?

andrew honychurch
08-06-11, 19:06
what about this serial number then/??

http://www.asphm.com/vehicules/universal_carrier_t16/universal_carrier_t16_17.jpg

point being, Adrian, that this original plate has a T number not a TD. I think there is some misunderstandings going on here! Not sure what is correct and what each nomenclature means?

ajmac
08-06-11, 23:08
As Adrian said the war department number, for anything tracked, the 'T' number, originated in England, when an order was placed a block of numbers was allocated to that contract, I have seen some of the Loyd Carrier contract cards held by the tank museum earlier in the year, there may be T16 cards too. What does nigels carrier book volume 2 say, his section on loyds in volume 1 has all the WD number lists for loyds.
The data plate would have had the WD number stamped on it as well as a vehicle serial number which was unique to the manufacturer, the T16 parts book refers to change points using the vehicle serial number. It goes on to say:
vehicle serial numbers were first assigned to each hull when fabricated rather than the final assembled vehicle, this number prefixed by FS should be stamped on the transmission and final drive housing. After hull number 1000 the vehicles were assigned a serial number without prefix or suffix, it was stamped on the top upper right hand front plate also transmission case and final drive. So you should be able to have a stab at your vehicle serial number my havin a look in these places...obviously be careful of parts that may have been replaced in service.

I presume the TD part is perhaps a corruption of the T number, I have seen a Loyd data plate stamped CTxxxx, which doesn't exist in the wartime contract cards, however the vehicle fitted the bill for being the number without the C. Like all of these things not as black and White as it first seems :-)

horsa
08-06-11, 23:36
This is why I thought the number on the data plate and in paint on the vehicle was the British census number. They were built under contract in the USA for England and the "T" or "TD" number was painted while in the USA on the three designated locations as specified by the contract.

No USA vehicle has a T or TD code so this must have been done based on vehicle contract orders that had been placed already. And we've seen examples of the T-16 with the white vehicle numbers like mine had, in the same three locations. Some had TD prefix like mine and some only had T. Postwar examples the Swiss bought were painted over, but the original numbers are still etched into the hull under the paint.

My understanding is the Welbikes build in the UK had their numbers with the "C" prefix painted at the production factory based on contracts so it would stand to reason the same thing happened with the T-16. Since the U.S. army wasn't getting the vehicles, anyone doing record keeping could simply have gone by the vehicle's Ford serial number which is stamped with the date on the front armour. And that number has nothing to do with the sequence of the T or TD number.

In terms of your question on towing assignment Andrew, I have no idea. The towing assembly and wading skirt squares were definitely added after the vehicles got to the UK. My towing assembly and several others I've seen were welded directly over the rear vehicle markings. And the markings on the side were partially obscured by the front wading skirt squares and so got repainted lower down on the side after the modifications were done. Odds are there was some minor specification difference in a vehicle ordered as a tug, but so far we haven't identified a trend in the variations in parts encountered.

Shot attached has been posted before and shows a field of T-16s in the UK that have not been modified with towing assemblies or wading fixtures. Note the numbers and prefix on the rear lower armor of the vehicles that haven't been converted into tents. And the other shot has a T-16 with numbers in the same format as my carrier had with dots behind the vehicle prefix. It only has a "T." prefix but the space is there for a "D." before the number begins. And the third shot shows another T-16 with similar spacing. But they were not as conscientious about doing a good job of painting over the "D." which makes you wonder what else was going on back then.

Note: These are wartime shots and not surviving T-16s so it's a bit of overlap with the other old T-16 message thread. But they are needed for reference here I think.

ajmac
09-06-11, 00:43
I like the 1st photo, note all the Loyd Carriers in the distance!

andrew honychurch
09-06-11, 09:15
well its a bit of mystery. Interesting to note on your photos David, that the vehicle in service in Europe does not have the wading blocks welded on and I assume that it doesnt have the tow equipment either, which may mean that these were added after they had been in service? As for the TD and |T designation, my vehicle is a latish one, June 1944 manufacture from recollection, I think all the vehicles I have seen so far with TD are earlier than this. So, I wonder whether there was a change in designation at some stage. I am sure it will be possible to find out for sure what the difference relates to. Someone needs to go digging at the Tank Museum!

horsa
09-06-11, 16:04
Yep, the answer is sure to be buried out there somewhere in the archives.

I'd also noticed both of those carriers in service didn't have the wading skirt squares on the hulls. Not sure about the towing assembly though. The latest TD marked hull I've come across was built 3-1944. So far the latest hull with wading squares is Ray's which has an illegible double digit month in 1944. So the last quarter of that year either way and the serial number is 12683 making it almost 7000 units after mine was built.

Canadian wartime records from February 1944 indicated all of their T-16 vehicle allotment would be for 4.2-inch mortars and towing 6-pdr A/T guns. But a shortage for the Normandy invasion had them temporarily change that to all T-16s being assigned as 4.2-inch mortar carriers. Once production caught up again, then they resumed assignments as gun tugs and likely other roles as well. So far no records of British assignments have been located that I know of. It would be nice to find history on your carrier Andrew, since it stayed in the UK. Mine and most now in the USA were part of the British vehicles sold to the Swiss after the war. So it is unknown if they were British or Canadian during the war. The only trends with them are they all have been TD or T marked and all had the wading skirt squares and towing assembly on them, regardless of the number prefix.

andrew honychurch
09-06-11, 19:12
indeed, I would like to find out some history of mine. I was told that it was one of a batch of very low mileage T16s that got sold to Pounds of Portsmouth a well known scrap metal dealer here in the UK. The carriers were standing on an airfield in the midlands as storage and were supposedly driven to the scrapyard. It shows 900 miles on the speedo, so that would tally. I did find that there is some sand coloured paint in places and indeed some realy golden desert sand as well. My guess is it may have been prepared for Suez and been there and then brought back to the UK and put in store. I will one day try to visit the tank museum and discover more.

tankbarrell
10-06-11, 09:35
It would seem upon further checking that the TD number is the WD number though why the D was added is a mystery. The WD number range for T-16 was T92001 to T107000. As the D only seems to appear on the earlier listings, it may well have been a mistake?

My earlier position was based on the fact that in US production, the Ordnance number is not the same as the USA registration number.

You never stop learning! :)

andrew honychurch
10-06-11, 09:42
Mistake? what the army making a mistake? couldnt be :)

tankbarrell
10-06-11, 14:11
I should imagine the mistake to be Fords.... The Army clearly did not want the D hence the painted out examples in the pictures.

I wonder if it stood for Dearborn? :wacko:

K713
10-06-11, 14:13
The Swords and Ploughshares Museum near Ottawa has a cut T-16 in its collection. Mike may be able to add some info but i alsways thought that this one had some interesting features such as the towing attachment and fenders/steps on the sides. I remember John Cameron, a one-time shareholder in this carrier, saying that it was found in the Ottawa area but I can't remember where. It has a been fitted with a newer Chevrolet in-line six with 3-speed trans mounted to the input shaft of the original Ford trans, and it seems that the tracks are on backwards.

I don't think that i've ever seen carrier wheels with round holes in them, are they T-16 specific?

j

Hello the wheel with rounds holes are specific for British Loyd carrier, but are used on Universal carrier ..

horsa
10-06-11, 16:25
Glad to hear confirmation on the TD being a proper part of the census numbers. There is a real lack of good information on the T-16s and we are all still learning about their history during the war. Hopefully someone will come across more of the original British wartime records related to their unit assignments.

Looking through the message thread I noticed I never added a shot of my own carrier. It was sold off to the Swiss after the war and when I got it, everything was striped and the remains were a rusty mess. Serial Number is 5399 with the FS number being 5488. Date stamped by the serial number is 1-44 and the Census/ORD number is TD97377.

Gunner
29-07-11, 04:53
Greetings all: The T16 hulk we have at S&P is pretty rough. I'll try to post a photo sometime. I have found a couple of hulls so if I can acquire one we may be able to put one whole T16 together.

Mark Tonner- I sent you a PM re 1940 C8. Hope you got it!

Ubique! Mike:remember

Hanno Spoelstra
13-08-12, 13:00
1) According to the picture shown below, the French had T16s.

Just found a picture of a T16 plus a SdKfz.251 in French service in Indochina.

Sources: http://www.mafva.net/other%20pages/251_2_morepics.htm and http://www.network54.com/Forum/47210/thread/1333666584/Pimp+my+SdKfz+251

Hanno Spoelstra
23-06-13, 19:13
T16 at the Randfontein War Memorial, South Africa.

Source: http://www.allatsea.co.za/mygallery/plinthedmilitarygallery01.htm

Hanno Spoelstra
12-10-13, 13:32
No idea if this is still there....

"Ford T16 Universal Carrier. Blackgang Chine, Isle of Wight 1980's" (http://www.flickr.com/photos/richard64pics/8590171008/)

H.

Hanno Spoelstra
12-10-13, 18:29
Well, all I can say is this picture was recently (12 Feb. 2004) added to the Tankmaster (http://www.thetankmaster.com/ENGLISH/AFV/Latrun_02.asp) site and that it does show a T16, doesn't it? I realise that it doesn't automatically mean it was actually used by the IDF, as the museum is trading AFVs with other countries (like the Sheridan).
Another picture of the T16 at the museum at Latrun, Israel.

Source: http://www.ointres.se/latrun.htm

eddy8men
13-10-13, 12:18
hanno the t16 is no longer at blackgang chine but I don't know who has it now

Hanno Spoelstra
09-02-14, 22:50
For good measure, here's another survivor at the Bangladesh Military Museum - Dhaka (Bangladesh)

Picture source: http://www.somewhereinblog.net/blog/pakachul/29711478

Regards,
Hanno