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-   -   "Indian Pattern odd job" (http://www.mapleleafup.net/forums/showthread.php?t=5221)

Alex van de Wetering 28-04-21 22:54

Quote:

The owner shared a picture of the radiator “in fact it has a hole for a hand crank to pass through the radiator!”
Hanno....it just has to be one, right? The top tank of the radiator seems to have a slightly different shape...and as you say the cap is in a different position. But, I presume there could be details differences between radiator suppliers.

Did the seller share any more pictures? Dataplate? Chassis/engine number?

Tony Smith 29-04-21 02:01

"Odd Job".

While the roofline and windscreens appear to be of a 13 Cab pattern, it is interesting to note the engine cover and Instrument Binnacle are 12 Cab. You cannot retrofit these to a 13 Cab truck without major work, so the truck has been designed from the start as a real Odd Job.

Anyone driving past the Central Northern SA Deserts soon?

Hanno Spoelstra 29-04-21 17:18

2 Attachment(s)
Note how the strengthening rib inside the cab compares to the original:

Attachment 121689 Attachment 121690

Alex van de Wetering 04-05-21 14:55

Quote:

While the roofline and windscreens appear to be of a 13 Cab pattern,
Hanno, Tony, I wonder if the roof and windscreen could have been added in it's civvy life(?)

It does seem the Indian Pattern Odd-jobs show some variations as well....I see at least two different engine covers (flat with square box on top....or slighly round shaped without the extension box). Some seem to have a sharp edge along the sloping nose line, while others have a rounded edge. Also, some differences in the hole for the steering box....just a plain hole, vs a hole with a fancy strip around it. Most run without windscreen, some do have a windscreen (retrofitted by Dutch????) I presume these custom noses could have been done by different people and maybe at different companies/depots (?), which would explain the differences.

Any of our Indian members that know more about this subject?

Hanno Spoelstra 12-09-21 18:44

1 Attachment(s)
It’s still there…. https://www.facebook.com/groups/9458...5627247130600/

Quote:

Harley Liebelt:
"Hey guys, thought I'd try again and see if anyone was interested in this old blitz we have?
It has a Commer Knocker motor (which does run) on the back connected to a post hole drill and a ford side valve v8 upfront.
It is located in far North SA but we have the means to transport it.
Open to offers!"

Attachment 124657

Tony Wheeler 21-04-22 04:24

Safe at last!
 
1 Attachment(s)
Folks here will be pleased to learn this old girl has finally been rescued from the wilderness and reunited with her CMP family!

Attachment 128280

Keith Webb 21-04-22 04:59

Rare one
 
Fantastic news Tony!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tony Wheeler (Post 286140)
Folks here will be pleased to learn this old girl has finally been rescued from the wilderness and reunited with her CMP family!

Attachment 128280


Hanno Spoelstra 21-04-22 06:59

unique odd job
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Tony Wheeler (Post 286140)
Folks here will be pleased to learn this old girl has finally been rescued from the wilderness and reunited with her CMP family!

Tony, that’s very exciting news! This must be one of the most epic border raids undertaken in Australia. Congrats on acquiring what may well be the rarest CMP.

Please share some technical details later.

Alex van de Wetering 22-04-22 00:03

Well done Tony!

Please keep us updated on what you are able to find out about the identity and history.

Tony Wheeler 22-04-22 03:54

3 Attachment(s)
Quote:

Originally Posted by Hanno Spoelstra (Post 286146)
This must be one of the most epic border raids undertaken in Australia. Congrats on acquiring what may well be the rarest CMP.

Thanks Hanno, it's certainly another epic journey for what is already an extraordinarily well travelled CMP! I presume it's ex-KNIL and was brought to Australia soon after disbandment in 1950, possibly via Darwin. It would have been simple enough to ship from somewhere like Surabaya or even Bali where these vehicles are known to have been stationed. I'd be interested to get your thoughts.

Attachment 128296


Here she is loaded and ready to depart Mintabie for the 2000 km trek to her new home. Previous owner Peter Liebelt completed the first leg to Adelaide, where she was reloaded for transport to Melbourne.

Attachment 128297


Unfortunately Peter had axle problems in the middle of nowhere. Fortunately he managed to stop before they became catastrophic. :eek:

Attachment 128298

Tony Wheeler 22-04-22 04:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alex van de Wetering (Post 286158)
Well done Tony!

Please keep us updated on what you are able to find out about the identity and history.

Thanks Alex, I'll definitely keep you updated on anything further I learn. I'll take some more detailed pics in due course and post in this thread.

Tony Smith 22-04-22 11:12

Good job. This was certainly an interesting vehicle that needed saving from a "Mad Max" fate on the Opal Fields.

Hanno Spoelstra 23-04-22 08:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tony Wheeler (Post 286163)
Thanks Hanno, it's certainly another epic journey for what is already an extraordinarily well travelled CMP! I presume it's ex-KNIL and was brought to Australia soon after disbandment in 1950, possibly via Darwin. It would have been simple enough to ship from somewhere like Surabaya or even Bali where these vehicles are known to have been stationed. I'd be interested to get your thoughts.

Well travelled it is! How it came to Mintabie is a mystery to me and open to conjecture.
I can see they needed a sturdy SWB chassis as a drill platform, but why import one from Indonesia if there were comparable if not identical chassis available in Australia? The CMPs used by the Dutch Army came from the Netherlands (ex-Canadian Army), Australia and the Indian Army*) - where this FAT came from.
In 1949 when the Dutch finally threw the hat in the ring, they handed over most of their equipment to the Indonesian Army. I have no information about them selling off any of their equipment. They must have had more than enough, so maybe they sold off trucks to dealers? I have no idea how international the second/ third/ fourth hand truck market was in the 1950s.
Like I said, it’s open to conjecture as we simply do not have enough information at hand. One day we’l find out. For now, I am very happy to see this unique CMP in safe hands :thup:

*) British Indian Army units occupied Indonesia after the Japanse surrender until the Dutch could muster enough troops to take over their equipment and continue the occupation and ensuing war

Hanno Spoelstra 23-04-22 10:12

Nick Balmer commented:

Quote:

I wonder which route supplies of vehicles from India, Burma & Malaysia used to reach the Dutch East Indies?

I know that many of the initial vehicles supplied had arrived in Java with the Indian Armies 23rd Division which was sent to Java and the 26th Division in Sumatra following the surrender of Japan. I believe that once these forces handed over to the newly arriving Dutch forces, they handed over their vehicles to the Dutch.

Other vehicles almost certainly were shipped directly from India to Java or Sumatra.

The presence of this very unusual vehicle in Australia points towards a third route via Australia.

I know that many of the Dutch forces who left Java & Sumatra in 1942 were shipped to Australia, where they reformed and built up a substantial air force.

Did the Dutch refugees also form army or marine units in Australia between 1942-1946?

If so where?

I wonder if they received Indian Army trucks to assist in the training at depots in Australia?

When did the Dutch forces leave Australia? Where they using somewhere like Fremantle as a operating & logistics hub in 1945-1948?

Tony Wheeler 05-05-22 19:54

2 Attachment(s)
Quote:

Originally Posted by Hanno Spoelstra (Post 286181)
In 1949 when the Dutch finally threw the hat in the ring, they handed over most of their equipment to the Indonesian Army.

Presumably the Indonesian Army disposed of their ex-KNIL vehicles over time and many wound up in Dutch civilian hands. We know there was a mass exodus of the Dutch population during the 1950's, with many of them choosing Australia as their new home. Amongst their possessions would have been cars and trucks, which would have been easy enough to ship if required. Perhaps some adventurous Dutchman brought this ex-Army 4WD truck to Darwin as an ideal vehicle for outback exploration. Whatever the case it appears to have wound up in Adelaide where the engine was reconditioned in 1961, and where it probably received the fabricated metal cab, which closely resembles others known to have been fabricated in Adelaide engineering works. At some later stage it was fitted with the drilling rig for use in opal mining. This rig has clearly been transplanted off a much longer truck, requiring the cab rear panel to be cut out completely, and the diesel power plant projecting into the cab itself.

Attachment 128454 Attachment 128455

Tony Wheeler 06-05-22 04:41

5 Attachment(s)
Quote:

Originally Posted by Alex van de Wetering (Post 286158)
Please keep us updated on what you are able to find out about the identity and history.

My general understanding of this CMP type, based on the available evidence, is outlined below. It's basically joining the dots between references in various publications, most of which Hanno has previously identified.

The Ford FGT parts list mentions a "low cowl" variant which corresponds with the C291QH chassis described in the Ford Armoured Vehicles Chassis Instruction Book.

Attachment 128464


Bart Vanderveen's Historic Military Vehicle Directory lists the Indian Pattern Armoured Truck, and also mentions a 4-berth Ambulance version. These correspond with the C291QH and C19QHF chassis pictured in Ford publications. Given their intended use for armoured vehicles it's reasonable to assume the H-suffix indicates Heavy, but in practical terms the significant feature of these chassis is the low cowl design, achieved by omitting the front crossmember to allow a low mounted radiator.

Attachment 128465 Attachment 128466


The 1944 Ford India training manual lists the various CMP chassis types in use by Indian Army at the time. It shows the aforementioned C291QH and C19QHF chassis as "stripped", which I take to mean they were stripped of their armoured bodies and converted to GS configuration, using a standard timber rear body. This mirrors what occurred in Australia with the Rover Armoured Car when they became obsolete in 1942. Of course, the Rover AC was built on the standard CMP chassis, allowing a standard cab to be fitted, whereas the Indian Pattern low cowl chassis required a completely revised cab design. I shall post some more detailed pics of the cab structure in due course.

Attachment 128467 Attachment 128468


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