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-   -   Sherman Crab T147955 “Avalon” Overloon. Regiment? Damage? (http://www.mapleleafup.net/forums/showthread.php?t=31533)

kevinT 07-10-20 23:35
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alex van de Wetering (Post 272961)
Even though I haven't read the actual war diaries yet, I did buy and read some books on the battle of Broekhuizen, where the Westminster Dragoons were active.

"The story of Westminster Dragoons" sadly doesn't have too much detailed info on the battle in Broekhuizen, but I have to read the rest to see if it includes any info on census numbers and nicknames of tanks.
Hi Alex,

Thanks to you an Michel for getting to the bottom of this little mystery and solving it.

If you do come across anymore names or census numbers in the book will you please let me know.

Cheers

Kevin

Colin Alford 08-10-20 04:52
1 Attachment(s)
Michel, Excellent work!

Maurice/David Herbert,

The extra aerial base on the right rear of the turret is for a WS38 Plan “A” installation which used a standard WS38 (not WS38 AFV).

Installation drawings can be found here (very poor quality images):

https://heritage.canadiana.ca/view/o...17/186?r=3&s=4

I agree that an aerial base located by the co-driver should indicate a hull mounted set ( but what type of set?). I am surprised by the presence of the hull mounted aerial base on AVALON as space on the right sponson was already restricted in the Crab.

Attachment 116643

Maurice Donckers 08-10-20 09:55
Wow that Image from Spitfire IV is spot on , I thought it was II because the paint remains on the weld were almost completely gone , the first I is clear .
Rest is also spot on , the additional aerial bracket is on the same spot , hole for cable goes through hole in turret wall,No side skirt strips , and additional armour plate position is the same .

About the aerial on the right front on Avalon , and on mine , there is more room in Avalon , then in a standard Gun tank , in mine there is only the space in front of the ammo bin , a 19 set will not fit In there !

Was Spitfire IV also involved in the Battle around Overloon ?

This is very interesting , it is another bit of history from the Netherlands Surviving , so I have to Speed up the Restauration .
I will take some pictures from the turret .

Jakko Westerbeke 08-10-20 10:41
Quote:
Originally Posted by Colin Alford (Post 273012)
I am surprised by the presence of the hull mounted aerial base on AVALON as space on the right sponson was already restricted in the Crab.
Wouldn’t there be more space there than in a regular Sherman? The chain case doesn’t sit as far forward as the ammo rack that had to be removed to accommodate it, so maybe they found that a radio will fit in the remaining space? Or some of the other stowage forward of the original ammo rack was also removed, but in the case it wouldn’t need as much removing as on a normal Sherman.

MicS 08-10-20 14:21
2 Attachment(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by kevinT (Post 272998)
Hi Michel,

Thanks for these I have added to and cross checked against my census number database and found a couple of things.

I had T212594 as belonging to 22 Dragoons turret No. 47 via Vanguard To Victory by David Fletcher (details must have been forwarded to me as i do not have this book).

T147892 appears in a 27th Armd Brg workshops return ( sent to me by Tom O'Brien on WW2Talk)

Cheers

Kevin
T212594 indeed appears on page 25 of David Fletcher's book, but it not attributed to 22 Dragoons, nor does it seem to wear any turret number. I assume it was photographed during tests and may not have been attached to any of the three flails regiments yet:
Attachment 116644

This turret No.47 might be the result of a confusion with IWM B5141, showing Cpl Barton's Crab No.47 of 1 Tp of B Sqn Westminster Dragoons on JIG GREEN West. I do not know of any other photo of this Crab which shows its Reg. No.:
Attachment 116663
© IWM (B 5141)

Michel

Alex van de Wetering 08-10-20 14:39
2 Attachment(s)
Quote:
T212594 indeed appears on page 25 of David Fletcher's book, but it not attributed to 22 Dragoons, nor does it seem to wear any turret number. I assume it was photographed during tests and may not have been attached to any of the three flails regiments yet:
Attachment 116644
I agree....plenty of Crab pictures in the book and some seemingly of the same one, but just like Michel I can't see any turret numbers, nor an AoS.
T212594 also appears in the IWM film IWM A70 5-1. It looks like the picture that Michel posted from David Fletchers book is taken the same day, during the same trial.

Attachment 116645 Attachment 116646

https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/i...ect/1060019366

Maurice Donckers 08-10-20 15:09
1 Attachment(s)
At home I have a book with 2 IWM pictures taken in Overloon during the battle , these are also M4A4`s , one has a black T number , to me it looks as if they are also command tanks from the 79th , any ideas if they are together with Avalon?

here is one of the pictures

Attachment 116647

MicS 08-10-20 16:52
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maurice Donckers (Post 273015)
Wow that Image from Spitfire IV is spot on , I thought it was II because the paint remains on the weld were almost completely gone , the first I is clear .
Rest is also spot on , the additional aerial bracket is on the same spot , hole for cable goes through hole in turret wall,No side skirt strips , and additional armour plate position is the same .

About the aerial on the right front on Avalon , and on mine , there is more room in Avalon , then in a standard Gun tank , in mine there is only the space in front of the ammo bin , a 19 set will not fit In there !

Was Spitfire IV also involved in the Battle around Overloon ?

This is very interesting , it is another bit of history from the Netherlands Surviving , so I have to Speed up the Restauration .
I will take some pictures from the turret .
Hello Maurice,

Great to know that another Sherman from a Flail unit survived and will be restored!
Did you find any trace of a turret number on your tank? It is possible, or rather, it is likely, that there was none, because it appears that replacement tanks in Flail regiments were seldom given a turret number (and SPITFIRE IV is the third avatar of the original...), but it would be nice to find one!

Michel

Maurice Donckers 08-10-20 17:33
Michel , no traces on turret anymore , too long outside took the paint off , just on the side of the tank there was paint left , and the T number showed through , so cleaned it and measured it up , to put it back on the same spot , Spitfire was also just by accident found , there was a scratch through the remaining paint and showed a bit of white paint , and after sanding and guessing it must have been spitfire II (should be IV then )
I got almost the whole interior complete , just the layout of the wireless system I have to work out , The tank was built on the 9th February 1943

MicS 08-10-20 18:13
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maurice Donckers (Post 273021)
At home I have a book with 2 IWM pictures taken in Overloon during the battle , these are also M4A4`s , one has a black T number , to me it looks as if they are also command tanks from the 79th , any ideas if they are together with Avalon?

here is one of the pictures

Attachment 116647
This is IWM B10820, showing Sherman V T147839 (or maybe T147639) of the Westminster Dragoons, probably of HQ 'A' Sqn. The T-number is apparently still in its original dark blue colour as painted before shipment from the USA:
https://media.iwm.org.uk/ciim5/47/57...at=Photographs
© IWM (B 10820)

One more photo of another HQ tank of the Westminster Dragoons in Overloon:
https://media.iwm.org.uk/ciim5/45/53...at=Photographs
© IWM (B 10819)

plus a Crab (not AVALON, because of the different gun mantlet):
https://media.iwm.org.uk/ciim5/49/34...at=Photographs
© IWM (B 10818)

Michel

Maurice Donckers 08-10-20 19:08
Michel , no traces on turret anymore , too long outside took the paint off , just on the side of the tank there was paint left , and the T number showed through , so cleaned it and measured it up , to put it back on the same spot , Spitfire was also just by accident found , there was a scratch through the remaining paint and showed a bit of white paint , and after sanding and guessing it must have been spitfire II (should be IV then )
I got almost the whole interior complete , just the layout of the wireless system I have to work out , The tank was built on the 9th February 1943

Maurice Donckers 08-10-20 20:14
Another thing about Avalon that puzzles me are the impacts on the turret , on the old pictures I can`t see them , and the protection track links are in front of them ?

Alex van de Wetering 09-10-20 00:07
2 Attachment(s)
Quote:
Another thing about Avalon that puzzles me are the impacts on the turret , on the old pictures I can`t see them , and the protection track links are in front of them ?
Maurice, they are indeed difficult to see on most early post-war pictures, but here is one attached that does show them. It seems the rounds went straight through the track armour.


Quote:
The extra aerial mount on the right hand side of the turret above the lifting eye is a common British (and presumably Canadian) addition.
On closer inspection I also see some small weld remains next to the top left corner of the track links.....maybe Avalon did indeed have this extra aerial mount.

Alex van de Wetering 10-10-20 16:53
4 Attachment(s)
Quote:
"The story of Westminster Dragoons" sadly doesn't have too much detailed info on the battle in Broekhuizen, but I have to read the rest to see if it includes any info on census numbers and nicknames of tanks.
My previous comment on the "story of the Westminster Dragoons" was a bit blunt. Contrary to what I wrote, it does have detailed info on the battle of Broekhuizen, but it doesn't include names and census numbers of tanks I was looking for, and limited info on crew names. It is however a very interesting read and available online in PDF form.http://www.westminsterdragoons.co.uk...pe_1944-45.pdf

It lists that no.4 troop A squadron under command of William Hall was in Tilburg from 28 to 30 October, with 5 flails and a Command Tank manned by Capt. Squirrell. I found the pictures attached in the local Tilburg Archive, which has to be this group
Even though we now know that Avalon is not in this troop, but in no.2 troop in stead, I decided to post the images, as they give a nice view of the storages boxes and extra chains on the side of the hull, just like the one fitted to Avalon.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alex van de Wetering (Post 272414)
I actually think the left hand side box on Avalon in the early museum days was an ex-wading stack used as a box for spare chain, which I think I have seen on more Crabs, especially during the fighting in Normandy.
source:https://www.regionaalarchieftilburg.nl/zoek-een-foto/

kevinT 10-10-20 20:49
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alex van de Wetering (Post 273069)
My previous comment on the "story of the Westminster Dragoons" was a bit blunt. Contrary to what I wrote, it does have detailed info on the battle of Broekhuizen, but it doesn't include names and census numbers of tanks I was looking for, and limited info on crew names. It is however a very interesting read and available online in PDF form.http://www.westminsterdragoons.co.uk...pe_1944-45.pdf

It lists that no.4 troop A squadron under command of William Hall was in Tilburg from 28 to 30 October, with 5 flails and a Command Tank manned by Capt. Squirrell. I found the pictures attached in the local Tilburg Archive, which has to be this group
Even though we now know that Avalon is not in this troop, but in no.2 troop in stead, I decided to post the images, as they give a nice view of the storages boxes and extra chains on the side of the hull, just like the one fitted to Avalon.



source:https://www.regionaalarchieftilburg.nl/zoek-een-foto/
Hi Alex

T212594
I am not sure where this match came from, perhaps I came across it on another film and at a different angle showing turret number and census number. My census number database I started over 30 years ago so it could have come from anywhere.

Anyway I do have some other Westminster Dragoon census numbers.

Crabs
T148041 C Sqn turret No. 85 – Warfare Through The Lens – E18418
T147395
T147892
T148069
T148122 All shown in 27th Armoured Brigade Workshop returns

Some unmatched Crabs
T147988 – The Tank Museum
T148450 – British Pathe 2101.07.021
T148844 – British Pathe 2115.01.423
T149886 – Vanguard To Victory – D. Fletcher
T150458, T263318 – The Universal Tank, pt 2
T147393, T147805, T150153 – Courtesy Colin Clark
T212296 - ?

Cheers

Kevin

MicS 12-10-20 21:50
Lt Hall's Troop in Tilburg
 
3 Attachment(s)
Great photos of Lt Hall's 4 Tp in Tilburg Alex!

All 5 Crabs are visible, led by Lt Hall's. He is the one with the moustache, leaning on the gun on this photo:

Attachment 116773

Just ahead of his tank is another Sherman which must be Capt Squirrell's command tank. The stowed jerrycans on the left rear of the tank might mean it is the same tank as on IWM B10819, although of course the other command tanks in A Sqn might have used the same stowage method:

Attachment 116776

Finally, the second Crab in the line might have a name on its side, but the graffiti and low quality of the photo make it completely illegible:

Attachment 116775

Michel

Maurice Donckers 13-10-20 15:08
1 Attachment(s)
here is another one , maybe been on here before .

Maurice Donckers 13-10-20 15:13
The above M4A4 must have been made before Feb . 1943 , because the lifting hooks still have the plate under them , Deleted from feb 1943 , SpitfireIV also has the late gun shield , no splash protection for final drive bolts , and the plates under the lifting hooks . Also spare track holders are in this position , Spitfire IV is produced in jan 1943

MicS 13-10-20 23:55
It must be a remanufactured tank, originally built before November 1942 (direct vision hoods). Features typical of remanufactured tanks include the add-on hatch guard armour plates and the gun travel lock.


Michel

Jakko Westerbeke 14-10-20 11:25
The additional armour plates before the drivers’ hatches were also to be added to tanks without direct vision flaps, because their purpose was to strengthen the armour in general there, not just prevent shots going in through those.

It’s very hard to tell in the photo above whether this particular tank has direct vision or not, though.

Maurice Donckers 14-10-20 12:01
Yes Yakko , you are right if the driver , and co driver would lift up their arms , we could see it , direct vision didn`t have the periscopes in front of the hatch.

MicS 14-10-20 15:26
Agreed, but to me the relatively high position of the plates means they can only be welded to Direct Vision hoods.


Michel

Jakko Westerbeke 14-10-20 19:51
Looking more closely at the photo, the co-driver’s hood seems to project only a little in front of the forward edge of the roof, so it could well be a direct-vision tank.

Alex van de Wetering 14-10-20 23:37
Quote:
Originally Posted by MicS (Post 273113)
led by Lt Hall's. He is the one with the moustache, leaning on the gun on this photo:
Thanks for the confirmation Michel!....I was presuming Hall was in the picture, I just wasn't sure which one he was.



Quote:
Originally Posted by MicS (Post 273113)
The stowed jerrycans on the left rear of the tank might mean it is the same tank as on IWM B10819, although of course the other command tanks in A Sqn might have used the same stowage method:
Good eye....I hadn't noticed that. Who knows...it might indeed be the same tank. Sadly the picture isn't any larger.....or better quality for that matter..

https://www.regionaalarchieftilburg....&rows=1&page=5

Alex van de Wetering 14-10-20 23:48
1 Attachment(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maurice Donckers (Post 273120)
here is another one , maybe been on here before .
Terrific picture Maurice! Any idea when and where it was taken?

I am betting on a direct vision hull as well. Attached is a picture of another "mysterious" Sherman, Argyll Roger (or Argyle as it says on the side today!) from a similar angle for comparison

MicS 15-10-20 19:43
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alex van de Wetering (Post 273143)
Terrific picture Maurice! Any idea when and where it was taken?
Supposed to be Kampen NL in 1945 according to this:
https://beeldbankwo2.nl/nl/beelden/d...717b464/media/

Michel

MicS 17-10-20 23:59
Another remanufactured Sherman V
 
1 Attachment(s)
in a sorry state:
Attachment 116846


It looks like a Direct Vision one, with the peculiar feature that the top of the add-on armour plates appear to have been cut just a little to fit with the rounded shape of the hoods.


Michel

Maurice Donckers 22-10-20 11:30
1 Attachment(s)
this flail could be Avalon , look at the mounting position of the track links on the turret , just it still has the cover on the front of the flail drive with 53 and 79th on . But off course there are more tanks with spare links on the turret .

MicS 22-10-20 12:06
2 Attachment(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maurice Donckers (Post 273334)
this flail could be Avalon , look at the mounting position of the track links on the turret , just it still has the cover on the front of the flail drive with 53 and 79th on . But off course there are more tanks with spare links on the turret .
Maurice,

It cannot be AVALON, although the spare track links disposition does look similar. But the tanks have different types of commander's sights, i.e. the blade type sight on the photo with a group of troopers on it, and a vane type on AVALON:
Attachment 116951
Attachment 116952

For more info on these two types, see (as always) the Sherman Minutiae page:
http://the.shadock.free.fr/sherman_m..._variants.html

Michel

Maurice Donckers 22-10-20 14:37
Yes I see , no weld remains left
But be careful , some turrets (I have 2) have both types mounted .


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