Early CS8T?
 

This Morris-Commercial CS8T looks as though it's an early unit? It looks as though it's a trials truck, with trade plate rego. Any thoughts please?

No idea what this is!
 

Another 1930s War Department truck.. any ideas which manufacturer please?

Re: No idea what this is!
 

David,

My first thoughts were that it was a prototype of the Humber utility based on the Snipe. But.....looking at the trade plate, it appears to be "HO" which is Southampton, now could it be a GM product ?

Richard

Richard
Seems to be some elements of the Hillman Wizard in there but the rad dosn,t fit in i willhave to have a dig through and see if i have anything on it

Re: Hardy?
 

Hi DR. Dave....

Here is some info on Hardy....
Good stuff ...

http://www.warwick.ac.uk/services/li.../ead/226ha.htm

There are some great links here..
A Summary Description of the Papers of the British Motor Industry Heritage Trust

http://www.warwick.ac.uk/services/li...6umb.htm#N1623

Re: Early CS8T?
 

Question,Perfesser...
Morris Commercial was tied into Walter Christie as shown here from '32-'38...
Did Morris make any tracked machines???
Or Half tracked machines using Christie tecnology??

MSS.226/MC MORRIS COMMERCIAL CARS Ltd. 1924-1968
Morris Commercial Cars Ltd, 1924-1968
Administrative History
The records described below were in one of ten deed boxes discovered in early 1988 in the `Poplars' building at the Cowley Body Plant when that building was being demolished. The following information was provided by Anders Ditlev Clausager, BMIHT Archivist : in 1924 W.R. Morris took over E.G. Wrigley Co. Ltd. (in liquidation). This was a Birmingham axle manufacturer and one of Morris' suppliers. Morris now established Morris Commercial Cars Limited which acquired Wrigley's factory at Soho in Birmingham and commenced production of commercial vehicles, usually in the payload range from 1 ton upwards, thus supplementing the light commercial vehicles made by Morris Motors Limited at Cowley. Later Morris Commercial took over the former Wolseley factory at Adderley Park in Birmingham. In 1936, Morris sold Morris Commercial Cars to Morris Motors Limited. In the BMC era after 1952, the importance of Morris Commercial as an operating subsidiary declined, although Adderley Park became BMC's main commercial vehicle plant, until the opening of the new factory at Bathgate in Scotland in the early 1960s. Subsequently, Adderley Park was used for the production of light commercials (as in the "Light Commercial Vehicle Division" of BMC). The factory was closed in 1971 and shortly after-wards demolished. The use of the Morris Commercial name on vehicles was discontinued in 1967-68.

MSS.226/MC/1/1-4 1924-68
Scope and Content
Vols. of signed minutes of directors' and general meetings. Largely formal resolutions, e.g. re appointment of directors, patents, licences, agreements, etc. Incl. ann. balance sheets.

MSS.226/MC/1/1 1924 Mar - 1932 Feb

Scope and Content
Specimen business :

p.39 : resignation of W. Cannell of Wolseley Motors as man. dir.

p.78 : licence agreement w. Automotive Products re Lockheed braking system

p.146 : opening of branch in Roumania.

**************************************
MSS.226/MC/1/2 1932 Mar - 1938 Jun

Scope and Content
Incl. agreements with John Walter Christie re his convertible chassis and his track-laying vehicle inventions (pp.132, 136).
************************************************

MSS.226/MC/1/3 1938 Aug - 1948 Feb

MSS.226/MC/1/4 1948 Feb - 1968 May

REF..

http://www.warwick.ac.uk/services/li...26mc.htm#N1381

Re: Re: Early CS8T?
 

Alex,

It was in 1936 that Lord Nuffield became aware of Walter Christie's designs. Lt-Gen Martel had been to Russia in that year and was impressed with their fast tanks, on discussing this with Lord Nuffield on his return, an engineer was sent to the US and he bought an example of one of Christie's tanks on the behalf of Morris Commercial. Due to the American Neutrality Act, it had to be sent over less turret and described as a "tractor". Christie himself followed over to England in 1937. The Nuffield engineers designed a Cruiser tank, the Crusader, developing the suspension from Christies design, but much improved upon. An offshoot of the Morris empire was started near the end of 1937, namely Nuffield Mechanizations Ltd., they were to undertake the tank design and build. The engine was a development of the old Liberty engine.

Richard

Pick-up
 

That's a Trade Plate ... not Southampton, but Hampshire I think. That could be a Farnborough MVEE plate? I will check my WD trials reports, as they might refer to a Hillman or Humber 8-cwt Utility.

Re: Pick-up
 

Hi David,

I was aware of it being a Trade Plate, that is why I was guessing it to give a clue of the vehicle's manufacturer. The old Observers book of Automobiles, gives HO as Southampton C.C. Now realise that this could be County Council and hence Hampshire although it could be City Council. Is Southampton a city?

Going back to the Utility, the row of vents in the side of the bonnet are familiar, I am still inclined towards Humber.

Richard

Re: Re: Re: Early CS8T?
 

Thanks Richard..
I see the Christie influence in the Crusader road wheels and track...

I am at the store and away from my reference stuff, but if anyone has any materiel on "senior series" Hillman or Morris cars and light trucks of the period 1934-1936, I think we might have an answer there. It looks like a six cylinder model to me.
I will jump into the archives in a couple of hours when I get home.
Very nice photo, David and thanks.
Bill

1936 FORD Model 67?
 

This is an oddball...I think it's one of the 1936 Model US-sourced Ford 8-cwt pickups assembled at Dagenham under contract V.2889. Anyone else have any ideas please?

More Fords!
 

The top truck is another 8-cwt pickup, circa 1935..I was thinking Model C or CX? It is very similar to the '67' but has different hood/bonnet side louvres.

The lorry is a MWEE, Farnborough, trials Fordson BB??? number V 21196 which I cannot find so far!

Re: Re: Pick-up
 

Just found the photo I was looking for, it is a Humber 8cwt PU, based on the Snipe. I can just make out one large vertical vent on bonnet side, but I see the bonnet line is higher on your pic, David and also the rad is more upright. The higher bonnet would indicate to me, an overhead valve engine, the Humber being side valve. Will wait and see what Bill comes up with.

Richard

Re: More Fords!
 

David,

This truck appears to have divided rims, ie two halves bolted together. This was a WD design and this vehicle appears to be the oldest example of their use that I have seen, even MCC did not use this type of wheel on their early military trucks.

Incidentally, that census number is in a group of around 8,000, listed as Misc. and various makes and types.

Richard

Hampshire
 

Apologies for sounding rude! Basically what is now the administrative County of Hampshire... a misnomer as 'Shire' = county, was until 1959 the County of Southampton. Until then the county seat was in Southampton, but it was moved to Winchester. However there was also the County Borough of Southampton which had all the powers of a County in a unitary authority including registrations. Hampshire included the Usle of Wight until 1974, although they had their own registrations.

We therefore have:
HAMPSHIRE
SOUTHAMPTON CB
PORTSMOUTH CB
BOURNEMOUTH CB

all issuing registrations. plus the ISLE OF WIGHT.

Then in 1964 the town of Hampshire was granted a Charter as a City by the Queen in view of its size and trading importance even though it lacked a Cathedral [which Winchester and Portsmouth had/have]. Thus the trade plates would have been issued in the County of Southampton, and the 'Humber' has 0108 HO and the Ford 0106 HO, suggesting that they were contemporary trials trucks. I have seen Southampton CB trade plates, and some local dealers have had theirs up to 50 years I think! They have say '123 TR', as Southampton CB had 'OR' 'CR' 'TR' and 'OW' from memory...the Mayor's car was 'TR 1' which Tim Rice wanted to buy at one time!

I can only suggest that the trade plates were used by the MWEE at Farnborough, north County of Southampton/Hampshire, rather than London CC ones which the WD used.

Interestingly, 0108 HO was used in 1936 on the experimental Leyland Cub 6 x 4 triialled in North Wales, 0107 HO a Guy FBAX, 158 HO an AEC Marshall 6 x 4 and 157 HO Crossley IGL8. So these plates were well-used!


Just added the photo of the Crossley with 157 HO trade plate on the 6 x 4 thread. The original glassplate neg is stunning and would make an excellent framed photo as would the others that I have used in VRS articles. All were COMMERCIAL MOTOR magazine professional originals.

Re: 1936 FORD Model 67?
 

Dr. Dave
Here is a good pix of the '36 Ford showing the front 3/4 view

http://www.autogallery.org.ru/k/fb/36forpickup_KARS.jpg

And a '35

http://www.autogallery.org.ru/k/f/35...npickup_KI.jpg

And just for interest a '40 Ford Army Ambulance.India......

http://www.autogallery.org.ru/k/f/40...aambulance.jpg

Re: Hampshire
 

David,

It all makes perfect sense now, I assumed up until now, that Winchester had always been the County town.

Richard

Very confusing
 

Richard, it was and is very confusing. Southampton City Council as it now is from 1st April 1974 is a unitary authority again. As is Porstmouth although the local DVLA rego office is in Portmouth and they issue all the old Hampshire/Southampton/Portsmouth regos BUT Isle of Wight, a County and now unitary authority, issue their own traditional rego letters and have done since 1974.

I once offered a family £500 for the rego 'SOW 32' on a Southampton-registered and based Morris Minor but they refused the offer. I thought I could have resold it to a pig farmer.

I have just noticed that some of my photo collection of Thirties WD trucks have Middlesex County Council regos, as they would be expected to, but in the 'MG XXXX' series...this was a 1929 series issue but blocks were allocated to the Government and used over a period of years.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Alex, thanks for the links. The North American '35 Ford was the Model 50 I gather. The UK equivalent I think was the Model C but I may be wrong.

Just to add a bit more to the debate on the mystery Humber/Hillman heres a shot of the Hillman Wizard converted to a tender for the RAF
Les

Answer?
 

I am conjecting now it's a 1936 COMMER N.1 12-cwt 'van', an adaptation of the 1935 B.20..27 being supplied with Census Numbers V 355363 to 355390 to Contract V.2908.


The thumbnail is marked '12-cwt B20' and another rear view says 'ASD6'...if that makes any sense? The B.20 was developed into the N.1, so it could be either in fact! There were also 15-cwt 'Vans' to Contract V.2749, which might be B.20 models, and later Contract V.3312 for two 12-cwt Vans.

Re: No idea what this is!
 

David,

I have the ID of your mystery light truck. The same photo has just popped up in a collection of military Commer photos posted on a forum.

"It is a Commer special for the Indian Army, based on the 15 cwt van chassis, (a badge engineered Hillman). Note the balloon tyres. Photographed at Farnborough in 1935"

Richard

B.20?
 

Richard, thanks for that...must be a 1935 Commer B.20 then, 15-cwt. and predecessor of the 1936 N.1. The WD acquired some as I said. Can you advise where this common man can find the Commer forum?

Re: B.20?
 

David,

It is a Yahoo Forum, called Commer-vehicles, I think you can read it without signing on.

Richard

I tried and cannot view more than the written stuff.
No photos unless you register it seems, and I have no real reason to add yet another registered site to my files.

Can you post the photos here??

Bill

Hi Bill,
Tried saving the photo page but cannot edit the surrounding page to just the photos. There are only about six military Commer pics on there.

For David, one of the Commers is a Q2, captioned as a 15 cwt 4x2 transitional model with larger headlamps and streamliened sidelamps, of around 1942. It carries the census number L3922025. Now according to the Groucho copy of Chilwell Census Numbers, it is part of Cont. No. C4663 Cat. Ref. 11. I have looked at a list of wartime contracts for Rootes Group companies and this contract does not appear, in fact there are none with the prefix "C". This photo appears to be of an unissued truck in factory new order.

Richard

Was it in fact:
 

V.4663??? Make much more sense.

Re: Was it in fact:
 

David,

It would make more sense, as most of the truck / lorry contracts are prefixed V, but that number is not on the list, some a few numbers out, but none of that particular vehicle description and quantity.

Richard

This is from another forum and is identified as a recabbed Leyland Retriever in Russia. All Retriever pics I have had a spare mounted behind the cab and different front wings.

Any ideas out there?
Bill

Truck in USSR
 

Bill

I'd vote for a re-cabed Thornycroft Tartar WOF/AC4/1, the truck is lower in the front than a Leyland and the front hub cap is different.

The truck in the picture has the right sort of fuel tank for a Thornycroft as well.

Pete