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-   -   Cab11 C8 Bush Find (http://www.mapleleafup.net/forums/showthread.php?t=28062)

RichCam 21-10-17 23:50

Cab11 C8 Bush Find
 
5 Attachment(s)
I sold off two and then this one comes along. A bush find Cab11 C8 that has weathered well. I'll bring it right into the shop as soon as I get it out of the bush. It was jacked up as a "runner" so I will be interested to see if the engine turns over. Front wheels "free wheel" but I need to get the truck jacked off the blocks to see if the rear wheels turn.

There are two extra seats, what looks like fenders, the manual crank and an open ended boxy item along with a longer curved metal surface. Anyone want to hazard a guess as to what they would be used for? I am going to assume that the steel tubing lattice work was some kind of framework for a tarp - post war?

Will have more info on the extraction as it occurs.

RichCam 21-10-17 23:55

More pics of C8
 
5 Attachment(s)
Inside the cab looks remarkably good as well. There was a metal box with two fully functional Toledo road flares, a complete battery box, dog house with labels and most of the bits and bobs from the dash including wipers.

With the addition of a wood version 2H1 box, I think that this would make a great fair weather daily runner.

maple_leaf_eh 22-10-17 00:20

Time to buy some lottery tickets! That is a heckuva good find!

Rob Fast 22-10-17 01:52

Love it!
 
Great find. Cheers Rob

Peter Duggan 22-10-17 02:55

Sweet
 
Richard,

You have become quite the CMP bloodhound. Looking forward to your updates. Good luck with the recovery.

Peter

chris vickery 22-10-17 02:58

Rich, don't be too hasty on the cargo bows. This might be an original framework.

Mike Kelly 22-10-17 03:31

frame
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by chris vickery (Post 243771)
Rich, don't be too hasty on the cargo bows. This might be an original framework.

The bent framework ( which is a great find in itself ) sitting on the back is the canvas frame for a 1A1/2 body which is the correct body for the C8 .

Looking at the cab , it has the metal rear window cover with the rectangular apeture for the canvas 'speaking tube' . More than likely it was a FFW vehicle.

cletrac (RIP) 22-10-17 07:01

Like Mike says those top bows are the originals. That curved metal as you call it looks to be an original fender. The two fenders are off of something else.
The open ended boxy thing is part of the locker setup. Check this thread.
Great find!

RichCam 22-10-17 15:54

C8 Bush Find - Background Info
 
Guys,
Thank you for all of the information. This definitely helps with putting some history to the vehicle and helps me with figuring out what was originally on the rear of the truck. I will scour the site to see if there is anything else tucked away or hidden under the leaves or rear of the truck. There are a couple of out buildings nearby the truck so I will look in those as well.
With a ending serial 2868, is it safe to say that this truck was manufactured in 1940?

Alex van de Wetering 25-10-17 21:36

Lovely find Rich! It looks very similar to my truck when I got it. Even with the same faded blue-ish paint on the inside.

Also the rare trim that supposed to be along the roof edge, seems to be there....although a bit battered and leaning on the nose.

Your C8 is only about 110 units newer than mine. The serial number would means it's built somewhere in the second half of 1940.

Does it have the hooks on the dash to drive with the doors open? Lamp in the centre of te dash panel?

Alex

RichCam 25-10-17 22:48

Thursday: C8 outta the bush!
 
All going well, I will retrieve the C8 on Thursday. I'll post pictures of the extraction, no snow yet here so it will be (hopefully) straightforward.

Alex, do you have any pictures of what a Cab11 would look like with the dash hooks holding the doors open? I will check the centre console light while I'm there.

I did more research on the 1A1 body, the superstructure looks original along with the 2 seats, fender and locker box. The fuel tank looks like it was repositioned. Drive to Victory pg. 216 indicates that there were 89 Chev and 245 Ford vehicles built but it also states that this vehicle was not used by Canada in any active theatre.

Cheers!

Alex van de Wetering 26-10-17 00:10

1 Attachment(s)
Quote:

I will retrieve the C8 on Thursday
goodie, goodie! :thup:

Attached is a picture of Nick Bullock's C8 with the hooks on the dash....as well as the dash light near the centre pillar of the windscreen. Not all Cab 11's had the dash light....and the hooks were supposed to be cab12, but I actually think they might have been added late 1940 to cab11 production already.

That canvas frame is definately rare! I think Dave was lucky enough to find one years ago, but it's rare to find an original.

Tanks have definately been repositioned....probably in order to fit a larger bed/body. At first I thought it was one of the 8cwts with one of those lengtened 1A1/A2 bodies....but that wouldn't make sence as the canvas frame seems to be unaltered.


Alex

Alex van de Wetering 26-10-17 00:22

Be sure to check if the original body is hiding in any of the sheds, as well as the big locker and spare wheel carrier that go between cab and body.....if the owner saved the canvas frame....than who knows...maybe he the box and other parts as well.

Quote:

2 seats
.It seems the seat backs have been altered....but they do seem like the original seats for the rear body.

good luck tomorrow!

Alex

I wonder what postage of the canvas frame to Holland would be.... :D

Mike Kelly 26-10-17 04:37

nick
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Alex van de Wetering (Post 243920)
goodie, goodie! :thup:

Attached is a picture of Nick Bullock's C8 with the hooks on the dash

Alex

Ah Nick and the C8. That C8 has been through a few owners , the previous owner before Nick, he had a new tailgate made and he threw away the original tailgate :doh:

Bob Carriere 26-10-17 04:50

On the dash hooks.....
 
It seems that early C8 and C15 and even some C15a with 11 cabs were not equipped with the hooks at the factory but some were retro fitted......

Also noticed that this cab 11 has NO rubber marker light on the front fenders but relied on the extra second bulb inside the main headlight for a marker light.

My cab 11 C15a does not have the dash hooks, no fender marker lights and no rear axle black out light............ and was probably never outside Canada so little need for blackout rear axle light.......my production ser. No xxxxx03158

Quite the find Rick

Cheers

Mike Kelly 26-10-17 12:02

numbers
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by RichCam (Post 243915)

Drive to Victory pg. 216 indicates that there were 89 Chev and 245 Ford vehicles built
Cheers!

One of Gregg's books has the production figures listed for each chassis type , I think the end production of C8/F8 was just under 10,000 with about an equal split for Ford/Chev.

I have been wanting to fabricate the canvas framework for some time, I have asked around but nobody local has the correct pipe bending mandrels. They used heavy gauge plumbers pipe for some reason. I will make up a bender myself , the thin walled gal. pipe seems the best option. 2mm walls . The heavier walled pipe 3mm is available but this would require more power ,

RichCam 27-10-17 04:08

Extracted: C8 from the Bush
 
5 Attachment(s)
Well, it was quite the day. The rain held off and the temperature was 10C. Most of the leaves have fallen off of the trees which actually helped with the extraction. The right rear wheel was seized so it slid on the leaves and the grass. The owner of the property had his Kabota tractor there and we had jacks, cables, chains, shovels, blocks and bars. It took some ingenuity but we were able to pull it up onto the trailer. We tried putting some air in the tires but as soon as they weighted up, a front sidewall blew out. At least the C-8's are lighter than the C-15A's.
My F250 is a long wheel base and I have a 14ft. trailer so getting around the corner on the bush road presented a problem.
The ride back to the shop was uneventful and the truck is now inside the warehouse.
The top bows look original. It is made from a heavy wall pipe and it weighs a ton! It also has 4 loops for straps on the underside. I did not see anything else in the out buildings or around the truck. It did have both original fenders, a centre console light, no rings for the door hooks and a funny looking metal box structure with a wooden interior frame. I kept it and will post pictures tomorrow.

RichCam 27-10-17 04:10

And on the way home: another one
 
2 Attachment(s)
Ok, I stopped and took some pictures but if I bring one more home.....I doomed. So, it sits in the field and I might look at it next year.

Mike Kelly 27-10-17 10:27

pipe
 
The background scenery is certainly different. I think I see birch trees but not sure . No signs of habitation .

Can you do something for me ? Measure the diameter of the pipe in that frame .
The best method is to use vernier calipers. A ruler is no much good for measuring diameters.

The pipe in that frame appears to be a odd "in between" size . The sizes available here are nominal 27 mm and 33 mm diameter.

Alex van de Wetering 27-10-17 15:56

Well done Richard!

OK, so no door hooks....that could confirm Bob's comment that some were retro-fitted.

@ Bob; I wonder if we can narrow down some of those early Cab11/12 details to when and where they were done....factory or retro-fit....for overseas service or not....British or Canadian.....door hooks, marker lights, cutouts in rear cab wall for seat backs, door straps (for British if I remember correctly) etc.
I do believe we have seen pictures of Cab11's in Canadian service in the UK without marker lights on the front fenders.


Alex

RichCam 27-10-17 16:21

Pipe Diameter: 27mm
 
Hello Mike,

Measured with vernier calipers - tube outer diameter - 26.9mm - so I would say it is 27mm.
Upon closer inspection, other than being a bit bent, it is an authentic superstructure.

Let me know if there is anything else that you need.

Regards, Richard


Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike Kelly (Post 243970)
Can you do something for me ? Measure the diameter of the pipe in that frame .
The best method is to use vernier calipers. A ruler is no much good for measuring diameters.

The pipe in that frame appears to be a odd "in between" size . The sizes available here are nominal 27 mm and 33 mm diameter.


RichCam 27-10-17 16:28

Rear Body to the C8
 
I'm going to be spending a bit of time this winter on just the mechanicals of the C8 so I'm going to be hard pressed to do a full restoration of the 1A2 body. How about if I did it up as a bolted wood body 2A1 and mounted the fuel tanks up on top of the frame like in the picture of the Ford F8 Pg 216 of Drive to Victory? That way, I could utilize the superstructure properly and I would have good ground clearance. Thoughts and comments always welcome!
Regards,

Rob Baens 28-10-17 01:01

hi Richard,

You just can't resist can you! Good job

grretings Rob

Mike Kelly 28-10-17 02:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by RichCam (Post 243980)
Hello Mike,

Measured with vernier calipers - tube outer diameter - 26.9mm - so I would say it is 27mm.
Upon closer inspection, other than being a bit bent, it is an authentic superstructure.

Let me know if there is anything else that you need.

Regards, Richard

Many thanks . That is good news , I can buy 26.9mm gal pipe here , it is a standard size . :thup2: These days gal. fittings are becoming a little scarce , the plumbers seem to use a lot of plastic pipes and fittings .

Some details. My C8 as found had the parking lights inside the main headlights , a small bulb in the reflector shell. And, a glass rear window in the cab top.

I would like to find out how a Canadian bodied Cab 11 C8 ended up here in Aust. Maybe it was a pattern vehicle for a possible Aust. version ? Would it have been shipped direct from Canada ? I believe they shipped out a single 15 cwt Canadian wireless house type vehicle as a pattern for the Aust. wireless van

Pete Ashby 29-10-17 10:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike Kelly (Post 243992)
I would like to find out how a Canadian bodied Cab 11 C8 ended up here in Aust. Maybe it was a pattern vehicle for a possible Aust. version ? Would it have been shipped direct from Canada ? I believe they shipped out a single 15 cwt Canadian wireless house type vehicle as a pattern for the Aust. wireless van

Mike didn't you guy's take some vehicles back home from N Africa at the end of the campaign ?. If I remember correctly these were issued by the British to Australian forces in theater.
I thought there was some discussion about this on the forum some years ago ?

Pete

Mike Kelly 29-10-17 10:59

odd ball
 
1 Attachment(s)
Quote:

Originally Posted by Pete Ashby (Post 244054)
Mike didn't you guy's take some vehicles back home from N Africa at the end of the campaign ?. If I remember correctly these were issued by the British to Australian forces in theater.
I thought there was some discussion about this on the forum some years ago ?

Pete


Hi
Yes but this particular C8 is a odd ball because all of the other C8's found over here so far, all of them as far as I know, were fitted with British Duple bodies. As an example ,my first C8 a Duple cab 12 had a British Z reg number on the cowl. see the pic

The cab 11 C8 is a May 1940 date as far as I have worked out ( possibly the earliest in Aust. ) , it does not fit in with the much later cab 12's that sem to have arrived here as a batch.

Pete Ashby 29-10-17 11:58

As you know we were receiving trucks as CKD through the Southampton rebuild plant up until it was bombed on the 30th of November 1940 and then via the Citron dealership in Slough. The early 11 cab trucks all seem to come of the lines with Canadian built bodies.

If your truck was shipped direct to N Africa it would have been reassembled at at two locations close to the the port of Suez up until late 1941 again as CKD with Canadian bodies.
A plausible scenario may be that the C8 was shipped into the UK issued to British forces and shipped out with them to N Africa then 'acquired' or legitimately transferred to Australian forces in theater. The second option is that it was shipped direct to N Africa in late 1940 and issued directly to Australian forces.

Sorry rather hijacked this thread

Pete

Mike Kelly 29-10-17 13:43

paint
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Pete Ashby (Post 244061)
As you know we were receiving trucks as CKD through the Southampton rebuild plant up until it was bombed on the 30th of November 1940 and then via the Citron dealership in Slough. The early 11 cab trucks all seem to come of the lines with Canadian built bodies.

If your truck was shipped direct to N Africa it would have been reassembled at at two locations close to the the port of Suez up until late 1941 again as CKD with Canadian bodies.
A plausible scenario may be that the C8 was shipped into the UK issued to British forces and shipped out with them to N Africa then 'acquired' or legitimately transferred to Australian forces in theater. The second option is that it was shipped direct to N Africa in late 1940 and issued directly to Australian forces.

Sorry rather hijacked this thread

Pete

That may be so but as found there was nil evidence remaining on the vehicle in the form of reg numbers, unit markings , or M.E. theatre paint eg light stone or a camo scheme, nothing. The original faded factory green was evident under a post war applied grey . The only other option is: a post war comprehensive re-paint, this process would have stripped the panels down to bare steel and in the process removed all of the unit markings and reg numbers, but the evidence says this is unlikely. How many people had the time or money to do a strip back to bare steel re-paint job after the war ? I purchased it from the first civilian owners grand daughter. Been in the one family until I found it.

The other two 8cwt's I have . One Morris has the M.E. reg number on the bonnet 0 36?0 . These odd reg. numbers appear on Morris and Motorcycles in Palestine , in service with the AIF ( see the AWM pics) . The second Morris has the light stone paintwork still evident and a faded unit marking. The first C8 has markings all over it .

Bob Carriere 30-10-17 05:32

Response to Mike's C8 and Alex's ????
 
In this great world of uncertainty about who did what and when to CMP during their last 75 years I will share my experience and observation on the Early C8 and Cab 11 and 12. I stand to be corrected and open to learn more.

We know that the Oshawa production/built CMP were started late March 1940 but the few made were all date early April 1940....... so Mike May 1940 would make it a very early model. I doubt that it would have any balck out light configuration but would rely on the small marker light you have discovered inside the headlight pots. By the way the full headlight. lens, bulbs and inside marker lights are available at MACs AUTO in the USA. Your C8 like all early cab 11 would have had a solid glass rear window with a window frame unique to the cab 11 and I believe early cab 12..... the frame is composed of two identical stamped sheet metal that sandwich the glass and each half is bolted, one on the inside one on the outside, roof sheet metal in between.

We also know that the very early Chev cab 11 had NO circular air intake on each side of the radiator and were added later during the production run..... so one could assume that only cab 11 models made in April / early May would not have had the air intake installed.

I have never seen the "famous" central dash lights in either C8 or C15..... were they factory installed and later deleted or installed later once in service?

Early cab 11 had a rigid windshield that did not open and all rear windows were solid glass.....with no rood hatch.
....and there are some exceptions..... there is an assembly line picture in the Ford archives showing a cab 11 nose fitted with an opening cab 12 windshield and roof hatch.............. confirming that changes were made on the assembly line as the parts became available...... and the line must not stop!!!!!

Tool box behind the cab opens length wise and there are no provision for a spare tire. The early fuel tanks had a very short vertical fuel cap set up and recessed under the indentation of the tool box. The set up is ridiculous when it comes to refueling..... not sure when in the production run the changes were made for a longer more practical spout. I restored my cab 11 using the early short fuel spout and there is NO current service station nozzle that will fit so when filling at a local station I have to use the horse cock attached to the CMP rectangular funnel to fill the tank....... and with out the automatic shutoff I usually spill a liter or 2 each time. I now use a radiator hose extension that fits the tanks opening and is much less cumbersome.

Back to the cab 11. Please remember that vehicles that staid in Canada, like mine, had far fewer field modification/updates that European models. So my C15a has no rubberlite on the front fenders and no back out light on the rear axle....... and vacant hole for the switch in the rear right frame.

The frame that supports the rear section of the engine.... that allows the bellhousing side engine mount was also modified in production. Were that cross member bolts to the frame rail ....early models were prone to cracking at the upper rivets and sometimes early they reinforced the cross member with an additional layer of sheet metal....... subsequently carried on all cab 12 and 13. So Mike you might want to look under your C8 on each side where the cross member joins the frame rail...... feel for a rivet head holding the reinforcement.

Alex..... on the cut out rear angle iron that joins the roof to the cab...... I have only seen these on cab 12...... and the holes are also drilled differently to allow for the narrow ledge left. In my experience and long legs when the cab 11 seats is fully pushed back...... and not using wooden spacer blocks between the seat bracket/tubes and the floor ( again to accommodate my long frame) the upper part of the seat back actually slips below the angle iron and your poor aching back actually hits the angle iron. I suspect that was not the only one complaining even back then so all later cab 12 models have that modification done at the factory to gain a few precious centimeters.

Cab 11 did not have the door retaining straps that were later introduced on the cab 12 and retro fitted to most cab 11 in service. There are numerous pictures of early cab 11 on parade squares that have the front doors opened and pinned back against the cargo box...... I would assume that in certain circumstances may have been tied open and driven as such....... once you realize how difficult it is to enter and leave the cab 11.... and wearing full gear you would want to do what they did on North Africa and loose the doors permanently.

Some sergeant must have been tired of having trucks with dented doors as they hit the rear cargo box and complained so straps were installed.

The famous front door hooks......... again early cab 11 did not have them installed at the factory but it soon became very obvious that the cab would get very HOT driving at slow speed during Summer months...... and since they had installed restraining straps and could not fold the door backward some wise guy decided that driving with the "door ajar" ( as my computer controlled car tells me) did allow for significant air flow in the cab. Early cab 11 were often retro fitted and they usually drilled two additional holes in the cowl to hold the long arm of the door hook. On most later cab 12 the hooks were installed at the factory and existing bolt holes were used to accommodate them without drilling more holes.

Early cba 11 did not have a fuel filter bolted to the inside of the frame under the driver's seat and the frame was not drilled at the factory for such a fitting.
Most vehicles in service were retrofitted.

I have never seen, on C15a cab 11 or 12, a reinforcement bracket fitted to the steering tube just before the steering box as seen on later cab 13 although there is a service bulletin for retro fitting....... note that my experience is limited to C15a and cannot attest to the larger C30 or C60 cab 12..... maybe Phil can chip in on this one.

As I said before the trucks found here in Canada where used locally only were not as updated as the Overseas active service vehicles. Most of the cab 11 and 12 were used for training purposes and for the most part considered obsolete once the cab 13 became readily available. Surely there are exceptions and for some parade or public appearance some trucks may have been tricked up to look more war time but the majority were used mainly for training or as a base runabout.

Other signs of early production....... the oval cover of the fuel tank went from brass to a white pot metal and then disappeared with the cab 13. We even found, sand blasting, a solid brass rear shock mount..... the one that bolts on to the rear axle cover.....why brass?

All the rear lights observed were the rubberlite. Cab 11 in Canada were usually not fitted with blackout headlight covering...... both headlights had full lens.

All early cab 11 had rigid stamped steel mirror arms that were prone to bending or breaking are they were solidly mounted to the side of the cowl over the bottom section of the windshield. Later cab 12 had a special cast fitting that allowed a mirror arm to be mounted with flexibility at its bottom point.

Brake lines on the cab 11 come through the frame rail, suspended by a small coil spring to keep them out of arms way and down to the wheel brake cylinder...... a rather vulnerable set up that was later modified but I have some cab 12 that have the same set up...... so maybe the change did not occur until the later cab 13.

Final clue to the early models are the floor plates....early had the "dot and dash" pattern the later models had the more current diamond plate "dash and dash" patterns and this will extend to the running board step on the cab 11.

Anything else that needs to be added????

PS....... rifle brackets on cab 11 and 12 are shorter than the cab 13 due to different cab height.
Cheers

Bob Carriere 30-10-17 05:44

Pictures for Mike
 
2 Attachment(s)
Here are two examples of the crossmembers.

Mike I would suspect that your early cab 11 C8 has the NON reinforced version.

RichCam..... you might want to check your truck to see if you have the early model and to make sure they are not broken.


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