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Rob Beale 04-10-06 11:46

CMP pintle hooks
 
I have noticed that CMP trucks have the pintle hook mounted in a variety of ways:

* some have leaf springs between cast brackets at the end of the chassis:
* some are in line with the chassis rails,
* others are below the chassis rails.

* I have seen some bolted directly to the rear cross member, and others with a coil spring on a fabricated frame below the chassis.

Can anyone clarify for me whether there is a pattern to all this?

eg Ford vs Chev, or 16 inch rims vs 20 inch, or vehicle weight or role??

Rob
C8AX Ambulance

Lynn Eades 04-10-06 12:00

Rob
 
Go to search function (top right) and type in "pintle".
Cheers,
Lynn.

Rob Beale 06-10-06 22:39

Lynn
 
I tried that but got no joy there, so a bit of self help instead!

The parts books for the C60L-01 and F60L-01 gave a clue:

The Chev uses a Ford hook assembly C01Q5151, same as the F60L (It has a Chev part number:- 1798952 too)

The brackets for the chassis have chev part numbers too, and there is also a buffer plate if a winch is fitted.

The Ford uses the same hook assembly, with a DND1021 number.

Now there are two different brackets for the chassis:-
C01Q-5181 which was attached outside of and below the frame channel [old design] also numbered 1798812

or C391Q 5181 attached inside of and on same level as frame channel [latest design]

So I deduce that it was a change in production perhaps to reduce weight and cost??

Can anyone with a F60S or F30 parts book please check the parts numbers and compare?

Grant Bowker 10-02-07 22:59

Request info for C15A
 
1 Attachment(s)
Based on the above comments, it appears that the towing spring mounted in cast fittings within the frame rails is a later production change for C60L. It is also seen in the photo attached (cribbed from Bob Carriere's post "Which winch is which") on an FGT.

"Blueprint for Victory" shows an early FAT being assembled with the pintle spring at frame rail height, held in place by bent metal brackets that appear to be about the same thickness as the spring leaves.

The truck that I bought, thinking it was a C15A, came with the cast bracket within frame rails style of attachment for the tow spring. I haven't done the complete survey yet, but didn't notice evidence of a winch ever having been fitted to require a higher mounted pintle to clear the fairlead rollers. I also don't know date of production any better than: Cab 13, round guage, hip ring features, and even this may be doubtful due to mix and match maintenance and restoration.

At first, before finding this thread, I was speculating that due to smaller tires and wheels a 15cwt would have a lower frame height than a 60cwt and that to maintain a common pintle height the springs were mounted between the frame rails rather than below them. Then I went looking for period photos to confirm or disprove the theory and found that most photos are from front or side so they don't show the pintle area very well. Of the photos that I found of 15cwts several, including Cab 13s, had the under mounted pintle springs. Does anyone know what the relationship between classes of vehicle (15cwt, 30cwt, 60cwt, etc.) production date and style of pintle mount is?

Thanks for any enlightenment.

Paul Singleton 11-02-07 00:12

Pintle hitch
 
I sold a pintle hitch assembly supposedly from an F-15 cab 12 that mounted to the rear of the frame with the hitch lower than the frame rails. Interestingly enough the leaf spring had markings from Dodge/Chrysler corp. stamped on the leafs. I sold it to Clifford Ladoucer. He was looking for a hitch for a carrier and bought mine in the hope that some of it would work. Perhaps the earlier cab 11/12 versions mounted lower than the 13 cab trucks.
Paul

Rod Diery 11-02-07 12:12

Pintle hook mount
 
I've wondered about this myself. The parts catalogues that I have are a bit vague but I think it might depend on whether a winch is fitted or not.

If it has a winch fitted then it has the brackets inside the chassis rails. this would allow the fitting of the rear fairlead support below the chassis rail.

Cheers
Rod

Hanno Spoelstra 11-02-07 20:07

Re: Lynn
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Rob Beale
Now there are two different brackets for the chassis:-
C01Q-5181 which was attached outside of and below the frame channel [old design] also numbered 1798812

or C391Q 5181 attached inside of and on same level as frame channel [latest design]

So I deduce that it was a change in production perhaps to reduce weight and cost??

That could very well be the case. My Jan. '43 F15A has the underslung towing pintle, a friend of mine has a '45 F15A with the towing pintle at frame level.

I'll check the Ford 15-cwt parts list.

H.

Phil Waterman 11-02-07 23:17

Tire Size and pintle location
 
I think one of the major contributing as to the location of the pintle in line with frame or under the frame will be in the size of the tires the truck was originally fitted. Example my 1941 C60L has the pintle mounted between the frame rails and came equipped with 10:50 x 16 tires, while my 1942 C60S has the pintle mounted to brackets below the frame rails it came equipped with the 10:50 x 20 tires. Result the pintles are basically at the same height.

Max Hedges 12-02-07 01:44

1 Attachment(s)
This is a photo of Robert Farmers blitz which i belive has an australian made pinkle hook mounts

Max

Rob Beale 12-02-07 08:08

Thanks to all,
 
it seems the tyre size, and winch fittment are likely factors in the pintle height. Has anyone seen a CMP with 16 inch tyres and a winch fitted?

Max, is the vegemite jar a permanent fitting?

Incidently I want to fit an underslung pintle to a C60S with 10.50 x 16 tyres, and I noticed it has Ford markings on it.

Rob

Grant Bowker 12-02-07 12:42

Bob Carriere has a C15A with winch and 16" tires but it is a retrofit, I haven't found record of any produced in that combination, but who knows?
As to Ford markings found on Chev, there seem to be many parts produced by each maker for both manufacturers based on the parts books and styles of numbers.

Phil Waterman 12-02-07 15:46

Yes winch with 16" was common
 
1 Attachment(s)
If you go through Greggs Fighting Vehicles Book you will see a number of winch equipped trucks on 10:50x16 tires. It appears that this was more common in the 11 and 12 Cabs. My 1941 C60L appears to have been equipped this way from the start.

This picture was taken just after I hauled it home a few years ago, you can also see in the background my 1942 Pattern 13 C60S and not that the Tow Hook in mounted on brackets under the frame.

As for the mixing of Ford and Chevy parts this was discussed at the CMP Seminar in 1984 by the guys who were there during the design and development. From what was said it was clear that there was and extremely high degree of cooperation between Ford And GM who ever could make the parts made the parts.

Grant Bowker 12-02-07 16:40

Sorry if I didn't express myself clearly, I meant that I wasn't aware of a C15A having a winch as standard out the door fitment.

Phil Waterman 12-02-07 18:45

Grant your probably correct.
 
As to C15A or F15As I don't believe that I have seen it listed in any of the parts books as being a standard part.

Though I wonder if Holden could have built some the Australians used the C15A in the South Pacific for many applications because of its small size and maneuverability that in other places might have been handled by larger trucks with winches. Also, wonder if some might have been modified for the hill fighting in Italy.

This sort of quick special application modification was discussed at the CMP seminar in 84 with a comment being something like this made Ė donít be surprised what you find as modifications and donít assume that it was post war a lot of expedient things got done in the field shops.

Grant Bowker 28-02-07 03:54

Partial answer, what hook mount for what truck
 
Note that this is only claimed to be for Chevs, I don't have sources for Ford Info.

The Chevrolet Illustrated Army Parts Catalogue dated January 1941 lists Bracket, Towing Attachment #1798813 and 814 (left and right respectively) for the C15 (only) and 1798811 and 812 for C15A, C30, C60S and C60L. All of the preceding are secured by 5 bolts for each of the left and right sides. None of these apply to the CGT. The CGT has a listing for Plate, Drawbar Spring Buffer (left and right) which might be the equivalent parts (possibly the bent stock seen in photos of Gun Tractors being assembled?). No Towing equipment is listed in this book for C8.

The Chevrolet Illustrated Spare Parts List for the C15A dated May 1945 (C15A-04) lists 1798811 and 812 as "(not used after serial no. 284--40742 except with wireless body) (used with water tank)". Again 5 securing bolts are listed for each side. Bracket, Towing Attachment #5816810 and 811 are listed as "(after serial no. 284--40742) (not used with Wireless Body or Water Tank)". These brackets are listed as being secured with 4 bolts each side. Based on the numbers cast into my brackets these are the cast brackets that locate the spring within the frame rails. My brackets are secured by 4 bolts each side.

Now for the things I still don't know and hope others can add:
C15 - what was different compared to the other frames
Early style C15A to C60L style brackets - can we confirm that they were the below frame cast style?
Wireless Bodies - Gin Palace style, converted GS style, or both? And why did wireless bodies stay with the earlier style tow attachment brackets?
Water Tank body - why did they stay with the early style braclets? Interference with the dispensing taps or other body parts?
Other capacity frames than C15A - did the changeover happen at about the same time (1942 contract year?) or did it in fact happen at all?
CGT - did they ever switch to the cast brackets of either style or stay with the "Plate, Drawbar Spring Buffer"
Ford - can parallels be drawn to Chev practice? These all look like Chev part numbers to me but the actual hook assembly looks to have a Ford number C01Q5151.

After all the rebuilds and field adaptations it may be hard to tell.

Gunner 09-03-07 17:40

Pintle ponderings
 
Hi Guys:

Add this to the equation:

Trailers generally have a long drawbar to which the lunette (ring) is attached, welded or cast integrally.

US designed or modified artillery has much the same, frequently with a rotating draw bar that can double as a hand spike when in action (the benefit is that when the gun is hooked to the truck the tongue weight is reduced by lifting the trails higher plus the spades won't drag when cresting. Additionally, you want the draw bar out of the way when the spades bed in on recoil).

British/Commonwealth artillery had very short to nonexistant draw bars... the lunette is usually attached directly to the trail leg. As a result B/C artillery cannot be hooked to pintles that lie between the truck's frame rails or turning corners becomes a disaster as the spades grind against the truck frame.

By placing the pintle proud of the frame rails (like a greyhound's nackers) or below the frame rails you eliminate the problem.

At the S&P we are constantly faced with this headache as we frequently pull heavy guns with a modern M series or civilian vehicle until we get to the show or parade venue and then transfer them to their proper gun tractor. Careful assesment of the turn angle becomes important when its a nice shiney chrome bumper that is at risk.

Why not leave the right gun with the right tractor? Well, for example our three ton 40mm Bofors reduces the top speed of the LAAT to 23 mph. She can do nearly 40 without. Can make the difference between a one hour drive and an exhausting nightmare... ask Rob! :yappy:

In the day of the CMP, specialist gun tractors were supreme. I wouldn't say that non gun tractor CMPs were intended to haul artillery if they were fitted with a low slung pintle, but it does add another dimension to the discussion.

:cheers:

Meltin' Mike in Ghana

Rod Diery 10-03-07 08:06

Re: Partial answer, what hook mount for what truck
 
1 Attachment(s)
Quote:

Originally posted by Grant Bowker
Now for the things I still don't know and hope others can add:
C15 - what was different compared to the other frames

Hi Grant, The C15A frame or chassis, like all the 4X4 chassis, measures 34" from outside rail to outside rail. The C15 chassis measures 36" from outside rail to outside rail.

In the attached pic of a C15 and a C15A right hand bracket, the C15 bracket is 1" wider so that the same 29" long leaf spring on which the pintle hook is mounted can be used on both 4 X 2 and 4 X 4 trucks.

Cheers
Rod
http://users.bigpond.net.au/blitz_trucks/cmp.html

Rob Beale 08-07-07 21:54

A new question:
 
Could someone give me the length of the chassis rail behind the rear cross member on a C60S please?

Our truck has had the ends cut off to allow a tipper deck to be fitted.

thanks, Rob

Rob Beale 29-07-15 22:49

A few pics of pintle hook mounts I have seen.
 
4 Attachment(s)
The first two are similar to the ones in Phil's pic of a 1941 C60L.
The side brackets are bent plate that bolt to the side chassis rails and to a cross member. There are 4 bolts in a square pattern each side.

The next pic is fitted to a C15A and the brackets fit snugly inside the chassis rails, much as in Max's pic, and also Grant and Bob's pic. - I will check again whether this pair are cast or fabricated. There are 4 bolts each side in a tapered trapezoid shape each side.
(Note this chassis has extensions welded to the ends)

The last set are fitted to a Marmon Herrington (and seen on the Irish CDSW Morris) with 4 bolts to each bracket to the rear cross member.

Rod's pics clearly show the under slung hook brackets. these have 3 bolts in a horizontal line on each side.

Now from all this, I see that the chassis rails require different bolt patterns, so it makes me think that these brackets are model specific and early /late production versions as related in the posts above.

I have not pictured the C8AX pintle which has a fabricated frame underslung below the chassis, and the hook is mounted to a plate on a shaft with a coil spring.
This seems to be a NZ designed fitting, perhaps based on US practice? GMC and CMP vehicles were coming into the country at this time.
The C8AX has a much lighter frame than the GMC, though the coil spring, collars and shaft have similar dimensions, but the spring is round section vs square section on the GMC.

Rob

Lynn Eades 30-07-15 00:54

So, will the next question be about the spring packs?

Ken Smith 31-10-17 10:22

I was given a pintle today that I thought was CMP but reading a lot of pintle threads it would appear it is not blitz but carrier.
The ends of the handles are flattened .
Did any CMP have the flattened handle version of pintle?
Ken

rob love 05-11-17 17:44

1 Attachment(s)
I took a look around the museum to see if I could find any flattened ends on the handles, but could find none. There is one exception...we have a limber on display at the main museum with flattened ends, which we noticed a few months ago. The limber is British built, but when I check our other British built Limber it has the normal hitch with rounded handles.

http://en.rcamuseum.com/artillery-co...25-pounder-gun

Lauren Child 05-11-17 21:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by rob love (Post 244341)
I took a look around the museum to see if I could find any flattened ends on the handles, but could find none. There is one exception...we have a limber on display at the main museum with flattened ends, which we noticed a few months ago. The limber is British built, but when I check our other British built Limber it has the normal hitch with rounded handles.

Presumably this clears the doors so they can swing open?

rob love 05-11-17 21:12

No issues that I know of.

Ed Storey 05-11-17 21:52

Pintle Hook
 
1 Attachment(s)
Here is a segment of the Perch image from the Q.F. 25-Pr Identification List.

Attachment 95367

rob love 05-11-17 22:44

Interesting Ed. My 25pdr parts manual is a fairly late edition, and shows the regular hitch. Perhaps I'll have to look at the limber closer and see if there is a date.

What vintage is your manual Ed?

lynx42 06-11-17 01:02

1 Attachment(s)
Just to throw the cat amongst the canaries, here is the rear pintle setup on a Dodge T110 I posted a few months ago. Seems to be a standard fitting for any Australian truck.

http://www.mapleleafup.net/forums/sh...ad.php?t=27754

Attachment 95368


Regards Rick.

Ed Storey 06-11-17 01:38

Identification List
 
The list is dated from 1943 and the image was from the parts for the C No. 27 Mk 1 Ammunition Trailer.

Ed Storey 06-11-17 01:41

Pintle Hook
 
1 Attachment(s)
This image is for the No. 27 Mk 1 Ammunition Trailer and is from a 1942 Identification List.

Attachment 95369

Ed Storey 06-11-17 01:47

More Pintle Hooks
 
1 Attachment(s)
This image is from a 1939 Gun Drill Book.

Attachment 95370


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