MK II Mortar Carrier Front Seats
 

Hello everybody!

I'm looking for references about the configuration and layout of front seats in MK II Mortar Carriers for a modelling project. Is there any difference between seats in MK II Mortar Carriers and typical MK IIs?

I ask because cannot find any clear pictures of them. The only hints that suggest me the seats on MKII Mortars are similar to those installed in MK Is instead of those in MK IIs are the following:

1) The stowage sketch which shows the MK I seats configuration (it also shows the folding flap above the front lamp, maybe the drawing was based on a remanufactured MK I Carrier?)

2) A picture of a restored MK II Mortar Carrier with MK I seats. Is this a vehicle restored by one member of this forum? It's great! :thup2:

Thanks in advance!

Luigi

Hi Luigi, I believe that you are right. According to the Chilwell, Mk.II mortar carriers used backrests from Mk.I Universals, so as the seats. Unfortunately, I don't have a picture of the observer's seat from this mortar carrier from the Czech Republic, but I do believe that its also Mk.I type.

I think Kevin Powles has a Canadian Mortar carrier in his collection, got it from John Bizal many years back.... cannot recall if he still has it, or what Mk it is, but he may be a good starting point for info.


Cheers

Richie

This Czech carrier is British made, so as my reference. It's quite possible that Canadian ones have some differences.

It was my job, many years ego....This "Czech bren carrier" on photo, ex-Norway, but my mystake, poor owner.....

Thank You all! :)

Luigi

Luigi
it would help if you could identify the carrier you wish to follow.
FYI,
A Mk I is British built.
A Mk I* is Canadian built. This is across the board, firearms as well. (the * means Canadian made)
The next thing to consider is that the transition from MkI to MkII in a Mortar carrier does not coincide with the transition from MkI to MkII in a Universal Carrier.
The transition is usually as a result of a major re think of the stowage (or less often a slight redesign of the hull)
From Nigel Watsons Books.
The first three contracts for Mortar carriers do not identify the mark, and I make the assumption that the transition happened from MkI to MkII at T82618.
I have a plate off Mortar Carrier T80908 It has no Mk on the plate it merely states,
"CARRIER,3INCH MORTAR W.D.No. T80908" I assume this and any earlier Mortar carriers to be retrospectively MkIs.
This transition in British Universal carriers appeared to happen at about T200,000 (100,000 carriers later)
The carriers you show in your photos are likely much later and in a range T 250,000 or say 1944 as opposed to 1942 era.

So back to your question. The early MkII Mortar Carrier had the same height adjustable seat in both sides of the carrier as the early MkI universal.
At what point in history the fixed gunner's seat happened, I do not know.
I hope that helps.
Anyone with info to the contrary please speak up.

Hi
Just an add to this.
As far as I know, Kevin Powell’s still has his Canadian Mortar Carrier.
I have two British Mk1 Mortar Carriers, both stripped and currently in storage. All parts are boxed and packed away. Hoping to get onto them after all the house build is completed this summer. These are the ones I imported from New Zealand nearly two years ago.
One is featured in Nigel Watson’s books while it was still in NZ.

Paul, as it happened the previous owner to the one you bought them off, was after my plate as this plate is a Wolseley plate.

Thank You Lynn and Paul!

I’m particularly interested in MK II Mortar Carriers of the following ranges: T 222798 – T 223383, T 223384 – T 223983 and T 226038 – T 228466.

Perhaps all these ranges refer to British built Carriers . I know that vehicles of T 226038 – T 228466 were built by Wolseley. Should we consider that at this point the transition from MK I to MK II was nearly to completion and MK II Mortar Carriers were basically similar to MK II Universal Carriers? Maybe these vehicles showed the fixed gunner's seat?

If this is true, I came to the following conclusions after having examined some photos: like MK II Universals, all late production MK II Mortar Carriers had squared mudguards with steps, folding flap for the gunner’s slot, tow rope on the glacis, one single front headlamp but unlike MK II Universals, Mortar Carriers had two little marker lights directly fixed to the front armour, oil and fuel cans on the left side of rear deck (same holder as in MK I models), mortar baseplate on the opposite side of the deck, mortar bipod on rear deck, 3’’ mortar tube stowed on the rear plate in substitution of the large kit box.
It seems that metal tubings welded on top of side and rear plates of MK II Universals were not present on MK II Mortar Carriers.

Luigi

Luigi, this "Czech" carrier is T227317, so one of these you are after. I do believe that she has seats setup from Mk.I
I think that your other conclusions are correct.

Thanks Petr!

Going slightly off topic, I noticed that some MK II Mortar Carriers were fitted with Stacey towing attachments. If these were employed as tractors for the 6 pdr AT Guns, I assume they were stripped of their 3’’ mortars and ammunitions.

Concerning the T 226038 – T 228466 range, here are some pictures:

1) “Megiddo”, with Stacey Attachment, towing a 6 pdr gun and carrying two 6 pdr ammo boxes , W. D.: T 226408 (Source: IWM)
2) Another Mortar Carrier in the same role, W.D.: T 227xxx
3) “Snow-White II”, W.D.: T 228293 (Source: IWM)
4) A MK II Mortar of Italian Co-belligerent Legnano Combat Group fitted with two C 224 ammo boxes on the glacis. W. D.: T 228315 (already discussed here: http://www.mapleleafup.net/forums/sh...ad.php?t=28417).



You can see this particular Carrier, recognizable by the lower portion of the broken circle of the Allied Star painted on the ammo box on the the glacis, starting from 00:59 in this video: http://senato.archivioluce.it/senato...-ADC-4241.html.
The vehicle follows another Mortar Carrier of the same unit and is followed by another Italian Carrier, in this case a MK I Universal.

Luigi

Hi this thread might help, my carrier has standard mk1 seats

http://www.mapleleafup.net/forums/sh...Mortar+stowage

Thank You, Kevin.
Excellent and helpful pictures! :thup2:

Luigi, your first image of the carrier loaded full of troops, I met the driver of that very carrier in Arnhem 2014, wonderful man :)

Thank You, Richard!

Really interesting.
It is always a pleasure to meet a WW2 veteran. They are the custodians of an inestimable wealth of experiences and knowledges not traceable elsewhere. :salute:

I don't know to which unit "Megiddo" belongs. Some ideas?

Luigi

I forget what he said now (so much was said) the image was taken during Market Garden.

Chap still knew the PAM for the buckets machine gun off by heart, but was quick to joke he could remember what he did last week.