British Vehicle New Guinea
 

I found this in a private collection.

It was in a New Guinea group and background looks right. The photographer was also in Palestine earlier but background does not look correct for there.

Pretty rare, any comments?

Lang

That is a very well stuck AEC Matador.

If there is anything to hook the winch cable onto he should be able to self recover and he has run the cable through to the front fairlead but it is then just lying on the ground. Possibly just waiting to be run out or maybe the cable broke and they are wondering what to do next.

David

David

I think the situation is beyond self recovery. More likely the overload shear-pin in the winch has broken. The general purpose recovery winches of that period were not of huge capacity, many modern Land-cruisers have 7 or 8 ton winches which is probably considerably more than the poor old AEC. The CCKW GMC 6x6 only had a 4.5 ton winch.

Almost certainly New Guinea. The palms are definitely coconuts not dates in the Nile Valley or elsewhere in the Middle East.

I have never seen a photo of any British trucks in New Guinea.

Lang

Bedford
 

There was at least one Bedford MWC 15 cwt water truck with a searchlight unit near Port Moresby. The vehicle is seen in a AWM film I downloaded.Will find the reference

Wikipedia suggests the Matador had a 7 ton winch, with a snatch block or two that's a pretty serious pull... CMPs with seized brakes have been dragged on firm surfaces with 6 ton winches although it sounds less strained with a snatch block.

Could it be Malaya/Singapore?

The number on the door is "AIF H4476xx" (x = unreadable). The number itself is too high for an original AIF registration, that's a British WD number taken on strength of the AIF. . WD/AIF regos were slowly phased out for the Commonwealth numbering system from early '42, although many vehicles displayed dual numbers to the end of the war.

The Tac sign shows vehicle B4 of unit 58 (on Artillery AoS colours), but the formation sign is tantalisingly unreadable. Might be 8th Div. Did we have 5.5" guns in Malaya?

Yes there were 5.5" guns in Malaya.
I knew a guy who served with them. He said that if there was a village being particularly rebellious they would set the guns up nearby and fire into an uninhabited area. Seems like a very expensive way to annoy someone ! Not exactly the way to win people over either....

David

3.7 inch HAA Tractor
 

The AEC Matador belongs to a battery of 2/2 Aust Hvy AA Regiment. Used for towing 3.7-inch HAA gun. Two of the regiment's batteries were moved to New Guinea in June 1942 - one to Port Moresby (2/4 Bty), the other to Milne Bay (2/6 Bty). HQ and 2/5 Bty stayed in Australia until later. In April 1943, 2/5 Bty moved to Oro Bay, NG.

The Unit sign in the image is 56 on red/blue AoS colours. The unit sign is the composite type combining the Unit and Formation signs onto the one plate.

The tractor was taken on charge in the Middle East from British stocks, when 2 Hvy AA Regt (later became 2/2 Aust Hvy AA Regt, and finally, 2/2 Aust Composite AA Regt) deployed to that area in Feb 1941 as part of 1 Aust Corps. The regiment returned to Australia in March 1942, before deploying to NG as mentioned above.

Australia did not deploy 5.5 inch guns to Malaya in 1941 - possibly the British did? The first 5.5 BL Howitzers arrived in Australia in mid-1942, and were not deployed overseas during their many years in service.

Mike

Come on Mike! I want a bit more detail not just a general idea about the truck's history. Of particular interest is the driver's mother's middle name.

Well done.

Lang

Lillian Martha Robson.

Mike

Thank you.

Jeez Mike, all I got from that picture was "It's a Matador and it's stuck" :giveup :giveup

Bedford
 

The Bedford water truck is seen at 8.36

https://www.awm.gov.au/collection/C256033

Mike

I love the play on the quartermaster.

A string of people are told "No. We only have one left and if we gave it to you we would not have any in stock for someone who wanted one"

At least he got his new shoelace after proving it was actually broken and having to hand in the broken one before he got the new item. The signature is absolutely essential.

Lang

Hi Lang , there is no shear pin on an AEC matador winch , at overload a rod will push the diesel injection pump to the engine stop position , the winch is capable to pull 7 tons , so with the double snatch blocks provided with the truck, it should be able to pull more than the 7 tons the truck itself weights ,

Thanks for that Maurice I knew there had to be some sort of safety feature.

It is amazing how difficult it is to get a vehicle seriously bogged like this out of a hole. The winch may be able to lift the truck if you had a sky-hook but dragging it horizontally is often another matter. Finding something to hook the cable on to is also a common problem - I doubt a coconut tree would hold 7 tons. The back looks as full as a Catholic School bus so probably 14 tons might be more like it?

Great info on another fail-safe system.

Lang

No skyhook but maybe a lenght of log
 

Hi Lang

I'll look for a picture in a recovery manual, which shows using logs to lift a truck out a ditch with a winch. Basically it shows standing the log on end with winch cable over the top. If remember the photos/drawings correct it shows it being done the a single log straight line pull essential or two logs as trypod which makes more sense.

As to safety point on winches like found on CMPs I think the primary safety factor on over loading the winch is between the operators ears. Having used the winch on my C60L Pat 13 a lot I'm convinced the winch is quite capable of folding the truck into horseshoe, or at least bending it to the point where the winch drive shaft pops out.

Had the occasion to use the winch on my truck in with some current duty service men and they were quite impressed with the fact that the cable could be run out front or rear, but when the winch started pulling a heavy tree snag wit the engine ticking over at idle.

Cheers Phil

Nice film, Mike, thanks!
 

That film was a nice find, Mike, thanks for posting the link.

I liked the various views of the Sperry S/L and S/L generator set. The AWM has an excellent example of the four wheel generator set, but I was never able to locate a descent enough example of the searchlight, its external controller, and the interlinking cables.

As to winching, I managed to get a SWB Landcruiser bogged in a coastal creek in a remote part of Wilsons Prom many years ago, with the tide coming in. No big trees, so I ran the cable out and double-backed through the scrub and hooked onto the winch cable to make a loop. When it wound in, it gathered the scrub into the middle of the loop, like a wheat sheaf, till eventually there was enough strength in all those little bushes to haul the Landcruiser free. Made quite a mess! Never told my National Parks contact.

Mike

In the tool boxes under the body are a load of ground anchors , which should be capable to hold more then 15tons in good ground , so a coconut tree is not always needed

Lang,

I just had a look at the AEC Matador manual, and the winch overload mechanism is quite interesting. It works on the strain exerted on the winch cable rollers, rather than the winch itself, and as Maurice said, a rod mechanism connects the mechanism attached to the rollers to the engine injector pump, moving it to the engine stop position when the strain gets close to the maximum winch capacity.

There were two capacity winches: early model Matadors had a 3 ton (straight pull) winch, which was soon superseded by a 7 ton (straight pull) winch.

Mike

Phil

Using the logs as an "A" frame to get the truck out is standard practice and as you say very effective.

Most heavy vehicle courses in the Australian army included this trick. Cut two logs about 6" thick and 10' long and tie them strongly together with a tourniquet about a foot down from the top.

Lean them at about 30 degrees vertically on the back canvas bow or top of windshield or radiator for long nose vehicles(depending if you are pulling forward or back) spread them apart at the bottom- making the tie-rope go very tight and producing a small "V" above the rope joint.

Run the winch rope out up over the "V" and on to the anchor point. As you wind in the A-frame rises to vertical, lifting the vehicle to either pack under the wheels or continue pulling with the more advantageous upward rope angle until the frame falls over.

Winching sounds easy but a winch is not a fix-all solution as anchor point angles are seldom perfect, a badly bogged vehicle requires digging and slithering around in the mud to run ropes - if it is sitting on its belly or in deep water it may be impossible to run the rope to the front or back as required for centrally mounted winches.

The forces to drag a deeply bogged vehicle bodily out are tremendous and the creation of a decent anchor point such as burying a log in a trench takes a huge amount of work. Those dinky recovery anchors might look good in photos but unless you have perfect ground to put the pins in, Murphy's Law says there will rock, soft sand or just more of the swamp you are already stuck in. More than likely for serious stuff you will need supplementary anchors (two or more kits from other vehicles, parked vehicles, smaller nearby trees or rocks etc)

I have done years of off-road stuff with light 4x4's and had many boggings and recovery. Twice in my life I have been involved in mass boggings. Once when as a kid in an artillery regiment where it took 3 days to pull the GMC's and Studebakers with the guns out of a swamp and once where we had two 6x6 and one 4x4 International plus a farmer's huge 4x4 tractor rescue machine sunk for days in the Markham Valley in New Guinea with just swamp and no trees - they were down over the top of the wheels.

The point is, a winch is not a magic wand. Great for lightly stuck vehicles but for serious jobs a tool requiring intelligence, innovation and usually a lot of hard dirty work. And they are bloody dangerous!

Lang

The AWM site has at times been criticised for it's collection descriptions. This item description, however, could properly be described as "Comprehensive".

Great help
 

Thanks Mikes and Lang for all the info in this post - I have been trying to piece together info on CMPs used with searchlights in PNG as remembered to me by a 2/19 btn veteran.
AWM narrowed it down to 6th or 8th Division.
Any more info gladly received. :)

Dave

2/19th Battalion AIF was a part of 8th Division which was captured in Singapore. Of approximately 1,500 men the battalion suffered the highest casualties of an Australian WW2 unit - about 75 KIA and 545 either starved, worked to death or murdered by the Japanese. If your veteran was in the 2/19 Battalion he certainly was not in New Guinea.

If his unit number was 19th Battalion (no "2" in front of the name) this was a militia battalion not AIF and was in New Guinea. They were initially attached to 3(militia) Division then to 5 (militia) Division. Their first operational role was toward the end of the war in New Britain. They were never a part of 6,7 or 9 AIF Divisions. You can read about the 19th Battalion in the carrier forum "carriers in Darwin" .

The militia (Citizen Military Forces/Army Reserve/Territorials etc similar to the American National Guard) was for much of the war dedicated to home defence and banned by law from being sent overseas. The regulations were changed and they were allowed to be used in Papua New Guinea (because they were Australian administered territories). The bulk of the major operations were still undertaken by the volunteer AIF 6,7 and 9 Divisions.

An infantry battalion of course would have no contact with searchlights but could well have been near to them at some stage.

Lang

Clarification
 

Thanks Lang.
I did leave out a lot of info in my short reply.
He escaped the fall of Singapore in the nick of time in his pyjama pants while convalescing from injuries sustained earlier - in the area where the massacre of the left-behind injured happened.
He spent time back in Aus recovering and then '"training recruits to salute"'.
He hated this and wanted back in the action - due to his injured arm he could not be returned to infantry and thus accepted the role on searchlights.
He recalled the American searchlights being so much better and that the Blitzes were green and brown (not all green as in Malaya) and rough to ride in.
He was protecting airfields around/at Salamaua and Finschaffen.
So maybe I missed info from him about what/which unit he was with once redeployed in PNG.
He has a sharp memory, so will get some more info when I see him on ANZAC Day.
With your added info now in the fold am getting close.
Many thanks -

Dave

What you should do immediately before he dies, for both him and his family, is get his military records. These are available on line. Many have been digitalised but if they have not, they will quickly be copied on request. His records should make great reading.

Start here:

http://www.naa.gov.au/collection/exp...army-wwii.aspx

What they also will do is jog his memory to remind him of people and places he has forgotten and as he has reached the stage of not buying ripe bananas someone should sit with him with a voice recorder and ask questions and let him run.

As an 8th Division man it means he was early into the war so must be looking at reaching his century very soon.

So easy to do but it will be lost forever in the blink of an eye. Make the effort to suggest all this to his family - soon!

Lang

Militia Units converting to AIF Units
 

To add another aspect to Lang's post about AIF and Militia units, after the re-organisation of the Army in 1942, Militia units could elect to become an AIF unit, by a vote of unit personnel (how democratic!)

To convert to AIF, at least 75% of a unit's listed personnel had to vote in favour of becoming an AIF unit, which then lifted any restrictions on where the unit was deployed.

Units that did elect to 'go AIF' then appended the suffix (AIF) after the unit title, but were not permitted to use the prefix '2/' before the unit title, which was reserved for those units that had been specifically raised as second AIF units.

Many units elected to 'go AIF' between 1942 and 1945.

Festberg (1972) shows that the 19th Infantry Battalion (The South Sydney Regiment) elected to 'go AIF' but he does not provide a GRO reference for the change, which is odd. It is the only reference I know of that claims the unit elected to 'go AIF', all others referring to it simply as 19 Inf Bn, including several date-specific references I have and the recently-published work of McKenzie-Smith on Australian units.

19 Inf Bn were part of 1 Aust Infantry Division in NSW from mid-September 1942 to July 1943, when the unit moved to NG and under command 11 Aust Infantry Division. When moved to New Britain in 1944, it became part of 5 Aust Infantry Division.

Getting far away from a bogged Matador, but interesting nevertheless.

Mike

The 19th Battalion still exists with a continuous lineage in the Army Reserve unit 1st/19th Bn, Royal New South Wales Regiment (1/19 RNSWR). 1/19 RNSWR is the current iteration of the amalagamated WW1 AIF 1st Battalion and the 19th AIF Bn. They are also the custodians of the battle honours of 2/1Bn AIF and 2/19 Bn AIF from WW2, but are not formed from those Bns.

Their History page states that while in Darwin, 19th Bn "was accepted into the AIF" and redesignated the "19th Aust Inf Bn AIF". This history also references Festberg as a source.

19 Aust Inf Bn
 

That's interesting Tony, but I think the writer may have taken Festberg at face value, which I'd also do in most instances. The absence of a GRO reference for the change made me doubt it, however, so I've had a look at the unit war diary on line at the AWM (they do lots of things right!) and up until the move from the NT on 12 September, there is no reference to the unit voting to become an AIF unit, nor are the unit Daily Orders headed anything by '19 Inf Bn' or '19 Aust Inf Bn', rather than '19 Aust Inf Bn (AIF)'. There is not change to the unit title as far as I looked, which was the end of Dec 1942.

Having now looked at the War Diary and seen the date of transfer was mid-September, I also went back and looked at the reference I had to the unit transferring to 1 Aust Div in August, only to find that the date on the first page was August, but on the page listing 19 Inf Bn, the date is 30 October 1942. Mea culpa - I've updated the database accordingly, and my previous post!

So, in the absence of any evidence to support Festberg, I'd say the unit did not 'go AIF'.

Mike

Here is an Australian Searchlight unit history book. It has nominal rolls so the old bloke should be in it.

http://regimental-books.com.au/expos...ii-p-2900.html