MLU FORUM

MLU FORUM (http://www.mapleleafup.net/forums/index.php)
-   The Softskin Forum (http://www.mapleleafup.net/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=5)
-   -   3 Ton Derrick (http://www.mapleleafup.net/forums/showthread.php?t=1371)

John Sliz 23-01-04 16:46

3 Ton Derrick
 
Hello, I've been going through all my books and I can't seem to find a picture of this vehicle. I would like to know - and see if possible - how different it is from a G.S. Is it still considered a Softskin?
Thanks!

Bill Mulholland 24-01-04 02:56

3 Ton Derrick
 
Hi John; Yes it is still a soft skin. Have you obtained a copy of Canada's Fighting Vehicles? There is a good pic of the business end of the vehicle. In my original copy of that book it shows a 12 cab version and in the Gregg re-print it shows a 13 cab. My scanner does not copy these well enough to post.
Cheers, Bill

Don Dingwall 24-01-04 03:22

Derrick photo
 
1 Attachment(s)
Not great but a good shot, and shows the derrick's lifting abilities.
PAC of course.
Don

John Sliz 24-01-04 19:03

Thanks guys!

No, Bill I haven't got that book yet. I'm still looking for it.
Judging from the picture, I'm having a hard time believing that a driver and a 11 man Eng. section c/w weapons were suppose to ride on this thing! However, according to the W.E. tables, a Eng. platoon had 4 of these, 3 of them carrying 3 sections of 11 men. The other carrying the platoon stores.
Does this make any sense? Could these carry men as well as the crane?

John

Bill Mulholland 24-01-04 22:41

3 Ton Derrick
 
Hi John; I wish my bloody scanner worked properly!! To answer the question-yes. The crane is collapsible and dis-mountable. The winch for the crane sits at the front centre of the cargo box, so is not really in the way. According to the photos there appears to be enough room for 11 Sappers and their kit.
Cheers, Bill

Don Dingwall 24-01-04 23:23

I also have....
 
...the manual for this beast. I'll scan later and post.
Should answer any questions John.
Cheers
Don

Phil Waterman 25-01-04 02:36

Front view of Derrick
 
1 Attachment(s)
The attached picture is one of a Ford 3 ton Derrick truck that I took several years ago. It is one of a bunch that were imported to the US in the 60s ex-Swiss I have been told as all the data plates are in German. I've found several all used by one of the big electrical contrators who did powerline construction.

At the bottom of the page below is couple of more pictues
http://www.canadianmilitarypattern.com/CMPsIveseen.html

Mark W. Tonner 26-01-04 16:01

Re: 3 Ton Derrick
 
1 Attachment(s)
John;

Not a very good picture, but at least it gives you an idea of what the vehicle looked like with the derrick deployed.

Some body details: - steel, special engineer's type, tubular superstructure, tarpaulin, hinged sides, tool lockers, two rear jacks to support body against down thrust, equipment includes 3 dismountable derrick legs maximum length 45 ft, winch driven from power take-off, 200ft ½ inch cable, maximum lift 4500 lbs.

Cheers :)

John Sliz 26-01-04 18:53

Thank you for the great pictures. Yes, know I can see how the Eng. section can not only travel in one of these trucks, but use one of these cranes on a day to day basis. Very efficient!
Thanks again!
John

Mark W. Tonner 26-01-04 18:59

Cheers :)

Hanno Spoelstra 29-08-06 21:44

Ford Winch truck
 
2 Attachment(s)
Here are two pictures taken from manual F60S-HB1. Note they are referred to as "3-Ton 4x4 Engineers' Lorry with Body Type Winch". I had not come across the designation "Engineers' Lorry" before.

Attachment 110954

Attachment 110953

See large size scans in my G503 > CMP photo gallery.

H.

John Sliz 29-08-06 23:00

Thanks!

Grant Bowker 29-08-06 23:25

Winch/Derrick Body information
 
The DND Body Parts list issued October 1941 (my copy was reproduced by Alex Blair) includes a listing for the Winch and Derrick trucks including a side view drawing of the entire truck showing the support for the tilt which is different from the GS body, presumably to clear the derrick poles and cable when set up. The body differs from the GS in having extra external stowage lockers for the engineer equipment. As well, there is no listing of tailgate parts for the Winch/Derrick body.
The parts list gives a breakdown of the parts used to make up the body and their quantities in a chart that permits comparison of the GS and Winch/Derrick bodies. There is a separate drawing of the derrick poles, pulley and fixtures that lists a full dozen models of derrick that had different combinations of legs, pulleys and fixings. There is insufficient detail to figure out what the differences in capacity, reach and usage (if any) were for the different models.
"Miscellaneous Floor Parts" include "Strap - Derrick Pole Retaining" which gives an indication of where the derrick poles were intended to be stored when not in use.
About carrying 11 men per truck, was it normal for the engineers to use the run of the mill sapper (no offense intended) as the truck driver and mate? If so only nine would need to ride in back which leaves as much or more space per man as I was accustomed to in the duece and a half.
When Don posts the manual it may answer the question about differences in the models.

Also see the thread:
http://www.mapleleafup.net/forums/sh...&threadid=1692

John Sliz 29-08-06 23:43

My understanding is that the driver wasn't part of the 11 man section, but part of the platoon HQ. This way the trucks could detach to safety if the section was to be used as infantry, which sometimes happened.
Thanks!

cliff 30-08-06 00:41

Re: Winch/Derrick Body information
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Grant Bowker
The DND Body Parts list issued October 1941 (my copy was reproduced by Alex Blair) includes a listing for the Winch and Derrick trucks including a side view drawing of the entire truck showing the support for the tilt which is different from the GS body, presumably to clear the derrick poles and cable when set up. The body differs from the GS in having extra external stowage lockers for the engineer equipment. As well, there is no listing of tailgate parts for the Winch/Derrick body.
Any chance of a copy of the drawing showing the tilt setup and extra external stowage please as I have one of these on my list of models to do.

cheers
Cliff :)

Larry Hayward 30-08-06 00:42

Derrick
 
John,

See also this thread on CMP derrick equipped vehicles.

http://www.mapleleafup.net/forums/sh...&threadid=1692

Barry Churcher 30-08-06 02:16

1 Attachment(s)
I have one of these bodies for sale if anyone is interested.
Barry

Bob Carriere 30-08-06 03:58

Any close up of the pulley.....
 
When I bought my cab 11 the rural mechanic had an A frame set up to convert the truck as a tow truck. He basically used the central mounted winch previously transplanted from another winch truck and using the rear fairleads ran the cable vertical to the A frame pulley.

What I have at the barn is the top 1/3 of that frame which I believe is an original army A frame...... from what I can see on the previous pictures the tubes seem to be composed of 3 sections held together with linch pins of some sort. What I have is the upper most 1/3 with the pulley and the tubes have the required holes for pins....

Pictures to follow over the weekend.......

....doubt if I will ever use it..... hate to see it rust away... if there is a taker for Barry's box.... I may have the pulley part...

Bob C.

Grant Bowker 30-08-06 14:38

A similar style derrick was used on the 3 ton Signal Construction truck which used a body "similar to AT&T telephone line truck". As a result, there may be more derrick sets available than CMP production alone would have created. Although the images suggest that the derrick heads looked similar I have no idea whether the same parts were used in both derrick sets for economy or if the Engineers and Signals people would have insisted on their own designs. The Body Parts book only refers to the Engineer variant.
If the Signals and commercial telephone bodies used similar derricks to the Engineer body, it is possible that the winches might all have been similar too..... not chassis mounted but higher in the body with a capstan drum as well as the cable drum (although the Signals version also had a cable reel driven from the winch), all operated from within the body as opposed to the cab controls for the chassis mounted winches.
There is a photo in Canada's Fighting Vehicles that shows the derrick poles stored in a compartment along the left side of the Signals body.

What is the maximum size image I can attach, to share the images from the Body Parts book? I would like to keep good detail but not waste bandwidth, you know the story.

Hanno Spoelstra 30-08-06 16:37

Quote:

Originally posted by Grant Bowker
What is the maximum size image I can attach, to share the images from the Body Parts book? I would like to keep good detail but not waste bandwidth, you know the story.
See Posting Images. If 700 pixels wide and 100kb is not enough to keep good detail, e-mail them to me - no size limit - and I'll upload them to my G503 > CMP photo gallery (you could also create one for yourself).

H.

Hanno Spoelstra 30-08-06 16:50

Quote:

Originally posted by Grant Bowker
there may be more derrick sets available than CMP production alone would have created. Although the images suggest that the derrick heads looked similar I have no idea whether the same parts were used in both derrick sets for economy or if the Engineers and Signals people would have insisted on their own designs. The Body Parts book only refers to the Engineer variant.
Grant, good point.
Body types listed for the C60S are: Dump, General Service, Stores, Derrick, Engineers, Telephone and Wrecker (as far as I know the same types were fitted to the F60S, excl. Wrecker but plus LAAT).
Going back through the Derrick images posted on this forum, I came to the conclusion there is a difference between the Derrick and Engineers (or Winch - a body model code I have come across is WIN-4) bodies, minimal as they might seem as first glance. I think at least the Derrick and Engineers (or Winch) bodies were identical in design and manufacture, the real difference was in the kitting out: the former does have derrick poles, the latter does not - see pics below.

http://www.mapleleafup.net/forums/at...=&postid=43701
Note: "Derrick Body"

http://www.mapleleafup.net/forums/at...=&postid=43702
Note: "Winch Body"

Questions remaining are:
1) Are the Engineers and Winch variants the same?
2) What are the exact differences between the Derrick and Engineers (or Winch) variants?

H.

Grant Bowker 30-08-06 20:01

Winch, Derrick, Engineer bodies
 
I may have caused confusion, I was using Engineer in the sense of who used the vehicle, not as a third body type.
The Body Parts list gives the same part numbers for the complete Winch and Derrick bodies, for first type and second type. First and second types differ according to the Body Parts List in winch location. First type had the winch below the body floor. Second type had the winch mounted on the floor of the body. Other differences between first and second types seem to be the side panels and tool boxes. There are many parts in common between the 30cwt 4x4 134"wb GS bodies and the Winch and Derrick bodies, all first type (particularly front and side panels). There are no parts listed for the floor to confirm it but they must have been different between first and second types to allow for the different winch mountings. The Body parts list that I have was revised January 1942, so would not include any later variants.
The photos attached by Hanno of second type bodies show that the Derrick and Winch bodies are remarkably similar if not the same, and that the derrick mounting points are present on the Winch body.
Based on the Body Parts List the only difference between Derrick and Winch bodies within the types seems to be the presence or absence of the derrick poles and their securing hardware for storage. Body wise I think there were larger differences between first and second types than between Winch and Derrick types.

Hanno Spoelstra 30-08-06 20:45

Re: Winch, Derrick, Engineer bodies
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Grant Bowker
The Body Parts list gives the same part numbers for the complete Winch and Derrick bodies, for first type and second type.
So the bodies are the same, the real difference being in the kitting for a certain role.

Quote:

Based on the Body Parts List the only difference between Derrick and Winch bodies within the types seems to be the presence or absence of the derrick poles and their securing hardware for storage.
Which is confirmed by these pictures - the rear view of the "Derrick Unit" (top) shows the derrick poles secured on the right side of the floor, while the picture of the "Engineers' Lorry" (bottom) does not show any poles or securing hardware in that position.

http://www.mapleleafup.net/forums/at...=&postid=43744

http://www.surfacezero.com/g503/data...S-HB1-Fig3.jpg


For now, I conclude the Engineers and Winch bodies are exactly the same as they serve the same role, while the Derrick body is largely identical to the Engineers body, but with small differences, kitted for a different role.

I would be interested to see the pictures from the Body Parts List.

H.

Grant Bowker 31-08-06 02:26

5 Attachment(s)
scan of complete truck drawing

the head sheave

and the legs

and the support jacks

last one, small parts

Rob Fast 31-08-06 03:28

Derrick box pic...
 
1 Attachment(s)
for sale, fresh paint, make me an offer.

Bob Carriere 31-08-06 04:04

Mine is similar......
 
Grant

On the weekend we have to take pictures of my pulley end.... if I recall mine has similar construction but the main sheave pulley also has 8 or ten inch long roller guide bars located at 90 degrees to the sheave thereby guiding the cable into the main sheave even if pulling slightly sideways...

Well Rob Fast as the box ready painted.... I got the pulley.. all you need to find now is a good C30......... anyone????

BooBee
PS... we have to find something to do for Grant he has too much free time on his hands......

Noel Burgess 31-08-06 19:21

1 Attachment(s)
Been watching this thread with interest and will now throw my spanner into the works: -
1. Grants scan from the body parts list is titled "30cwt winch & Derrick ...." I would tend to interpret this as the (single) body is called 'Winch & Derrick' not that it shows both the winch and the derrick bodies.
2. The picture from F60S-HB1 nanual is titled "Engineers Lorry with body type winch" - It is called an "Engineers Lorry" and has a body (as oposed to chasis) winch [Winch is not part of it's name]
3.Regarding the three photos (posted by Hano) with white handwritten descriptions - I read an ampersand (&) in them - i.e. Winch & Body [not winch body] etc. - are these official photos with official descpritions? On the photo of Winch & Body I think I detect the pole strap brackets and a difference on the floor where the poles are shifted in and out (see yellow marks below) also note the support jacks deployed - would only need them with a derrick.

My conclusion (for what it's worth) -
There was only one body called "Winch & Derrick".It was mostly used by RCE/RE units so the whole vehicle became known as"Engineers Lorry". Maybe it didn't always carry the Derrick poles but I think the all could mount it.

Hanno Spoelstra 31-08-06 22:01

Quote:

Originally posted by Noel Burgess
My conclusion (for what it's worth) -
There was only one body called "Winch & Derrick".It was mostly used by RCE/RE units so the whole vehicle became known as"Engineers Lorry". Maybe it didn't always carry the Derrick poles but I think the all could mount it.

Good points! I think you've cracked the nut. :note:

Grant Bowker 31-08-06 22:13

If I understand Noel correctly, I think that we have reached the same conclusion, that the Winch, Derrick and Engineer (either as a type or to describe the users) bodies are all minor variants of a single type. Again, I think there is more difference between the first and second types, due to winch location, than between the variants even though the Body Parts List refers to them as separate vehicles.

For Bob C. (say it fast and it sounds like he's one of the Bobsey twins) I think there were quite a few vehicles that used similar derricks. Examples include field expedient M3 half tracks, DUKW, FWD YU (see Observers Fighting Vehicles Directory WW2 (1969 edition page 69) and I think Ive seen photos of others.

cliff 31-08-06 22:42

Quote:

Originally posted by Noel Burgess
3.Regarding the three photos (posted by Hano) with white handwritten descriptions - I read an ampersand (&) in them - i.e. Winch & Body [not winch body] etc. - are these official photos with official descpritions?
I supplied Hanno with these scans of the photos and yes they are official photos and captions.

The DUKW derrick was different in having 2 guy wires to the front of the vehicle rather then a single pole making it a two legged lifting frame rather then the 3 leg frame of the derrick truck.

The US Army used a similar two leg frame on the front of GMC-CCKW's where they added the outter dual wheel from the rearmost axle to the front axle to give more weight capacity.

Cheers
Cliff :)


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 22:04.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © Maple Leaf Up, 2003-2016