F60L resto NSW Australia
 

Hey guys! Just thought I'd start this thread with my new purchase! A 1944 F60L! Going to be a long term project. Just pulled then engine for rebuild....

Can anyone help me with the identification of my ford v8?

Serial number D363:1 K

Pretty sure it is not the original engine? Hope somebody out ther can help!

More infor and pics to follow!

ID of Ford Engine
 

Hi David,

Welcome to the forum! Always great to have new members onboard and to hear that another Ford CMP truck has been saved from extinction.

I cannot offer any info based on the s/n but a photo of it would help to identify it.

As a general rule, the raised casting number and letters on the right front side of the block and/or the bell housing will give you the date the block was cast. If you post them I can identify it for you. It would be something like "C..9A"

There are some Blitzes around that have been retro fitted with earlier 21 stud motors which automatically rules it out being the original, likewise the later 8BA engines with the separate bell housing, top mounted distributor etc.

Car engines were often substituted for the truck engines over the years so things like single sheave pulleys on the crank, water pumps, and generator indicate a passenger car engine. A 1944 CMP truck would have used double row pulleys.

Hope this point you in the right direction to get an answer.

Cheers,

Welcome
 

Likewise welcome here David.

Have a look on top of the valley machined surface for an engine number as well. The original engines for a 1944/45 model was 4G with a F suffix.

Out of interest the original engine number is usually stamped on the top go the gearbox housing and also on the right front chassis next to the engine mount, this doubles as the chassis number.

Jacques is right on the money for help with the ID of different flathead types.

Thanks for the encouragement and info... I haven't found many more casting marks, but it is still covered in thick layers of dust and oil! I'm suspicious that it may not be the original engine. I do have the data plates for the truck, and the engine serials don't match. However, I have read that this was occasionally the case with wartime manufacturing!

Anyway, here are some photo's as promised.....

And with 20 x 1200 Tyres fitted to the front which I found. Looking for more.....

Engine is out, trying to free some valves, and remove split valve guides. Ready for it's acid bath.....then off to the specialist for rebuild evaluation.....

The truck came with good radiator, lights(Minus the lenses!!!;)), and a whole lot of bits and pieces! Engine was complete but seized.

Engine may not be original as stated before. Bore's measure 3 3/16 (3.1875).

I purchased another engine, but it was worse than original, so will re-build this one if nothing too bad is found...

I bought some excellent engine covers which are complete and rust free...

It looks like the transfer case intermediate gear has failed at some point, so will need that looking at.

Gearbox looks in excellent condition. I have removed the side cover and drained the oil(sludge) and inspected the gears which all seem ok, and without pitting!!!(Need a win sometime!).

BTW, does anyone know if you can directly replace the older style split valve guides, for the latter model guides and valves in the older blocks?

Yes, you can. A little info on Valvetrain in THIS THREAD

Engine colour
 

Looking at the front on shot it has a 'Divers Helmet' distributor as fitted to the 1941 vehicles. You mentioned the engine number is different to the one on the data plate, what is the number of the engine that was in it?
I have some NOS transfer case gears, might have the one you need, but will have to dig them out of storage.

What did you do with the boom crane? It looks to be the original crane as fitted to the F60L. Both the RAAF and the Army (mainly engineer units) used that crane type.

The original engine number, as Keith said, was also used as the chassis number of Aust assembled/built Fords, so that would be helpful in finding out its original identity/military registration number.

Nice project. Best of luck. The thread Tony pointed you to re valves just about provides everything you need to know or the options you have before you. As for pistons and crank shaft bearings, I used a later model crank shaft with two oil holes per journal, and fixed shell bearings rather than the original full-float type. Four ring pistons and 8BA con rods with fixed shell bearings. Also a crab-type distributor rather than the helmet type you already have. Balanced, it went like a train.

Mike

And discussed in THIS THREAD. (It is also a cautionary tale about using photo hosting sites, as some really good pics of the cranes have now disappeared from that thread! :doh: )

Thanks Keith, I'd appreciate if you had some gears, and wanted to sell them. Keep me in mind as I'll be looking at the TX case soon.....

4G6532F is the number given on the data plate....see pic. The number on the casting on the bell housing is D363:1 K. Engine does have the divers helmet fitted. Mmmmmm need to find more numbers on the engine. I'm beginning to think it was a quick fix by putting another motor in it?

Hey Mike, I still have the original crane and winch driven by the PTO. Not sure what I will do with it yet? I was thinking of leaving it off, as it weighs a lot.

Truck, 3 ton, Derrick
 

You have a 'Truck, 3 ton, Derrick', Army Registration Number 161942.

It was written off by Board of Survey from 2 Base Ordnance Depot on 5 January 1961, and would have been sold at auction shortly afterwards.

The engine number was the key.

Interestingly, the previous serial number (146477) was an RAAF GS vehicle, while several around that, for example, serial 146474, were the RAAF version of the Derrick, called a 'Crane GP', so it would seem your truck and several RAAF 'Crane GP' were all assembled by Ford at about the same time, and farmed out to both the RAAF and Army.

Regards

Mike :salute:

Hi David,

After zooming in on your photo of the engine I would say it probably was a engine swap with an earlier passenger car engine based on the single row water pump pulleys and what appears to be an alloy intake manifold. Neither would have been used on a 1944 built truck engine.

That number has me intrigued though. Is it raised lettering and cast into the block or stamped into the block? If raised lettering it does not conform to any block ID I could find. Still, there are a few strange ones out there which may not have been documented. If stamped into the block then some administration may have done it for their own ID purposes.

Cheers,

Hello David,

I found this photograph at the Australian War Memorial website. It shows a crane like yours being operated in Queensland.

The caption reads:

Wongabel, Queensland. 13th of March 1945. A 3 ton derrick mounted on a truck unloads a car engine at 2/3 Infantry Troops Field Park. Corporal G.R. Moyle (1), handles the engine at the foreground.

Photograph accessed August, 4 2017 from https://www.awm.gov.au/collection/C66242?search

A couple of differences between your truck and the one in the photograph taken back in 1945: your truck has dual rear wheels and the truck taken in 1945 has single rear wheels. The 1945 truck has a tool box mounted across the rear of the tray. Unless the toolbox was installed as an outrigger arrangement it does not look like it would fit on your truck?

Kind Regards
Lionel

Hey thanks Lionel!

My truck when found, was converted into a vehicle recovery truck, and worked it's civilian life as a tow truck in Walcha, NSW, Australia.

It had extensive steel plate added to the rear for towing cars by the front axel, it has the extensions added to widen front wheelbase.

I assumed that the duel wheels and extensions to the front would have been added when the tow truck conversion took place? Or did they have these wheels in military service?

Really appreciate the photo!

Just a quick update on my engine!

I've measured the main crankshaft bearings(2.4993") and big end journal bearings(2.138"). According to "Ford Flathead v-8 Builders Handbook 1932-1953" this puts the engine around the 1946-48 I'd say as the Bell housing is still the old style.....

Any thoughts from the Flathead guru's?

Ford engine identification
 

Hi David,

Sure sounds like a '46-'48 engine based on the journal sizes but having said that in the course of 75 years the engine could have had a crank replaced. My '46 engine pictured had 8BA crank and rods in it along with the 8BA valves and guides.

The divers helmet distributor still seems an anomaly on a later block. Again, who knows what gets swapped about after 75 years. Ditto the alloy manifold.

That number you quoted "363:1 K" is that in raised lettering in either of the positions that "C69A" is shown on my engine block? Anecdotally, I have heard there were some odd block codes for things such as stationary engines but have never seen any documentation on such.

Here's hoping you get a confirmation of what year the engine is.


Cheers,

Ford engine identification
 

Hi David,

Just remembered- if there are no recognized casting marks on the engine, the water jacket shape will give you a good approximation of the year of the engine. I assume you have the heads off if you have measured the bore.

I refer you to Vanpelt sales website.

If there are large triangular shaped holes between the centre cylinder bores it is a 1938 engine.
If the top opening is triangular and the bottom two holes are trapezoidal it is a 1939-42 engine.
If the top hole is triangular and the bottom two are large round holes it is a 1945-48 engine.

This should narrow it down for you. See attached photo of two different types of head gaskets showing the openings described.

Cheers,

Water jacket opening ID Ford Sidevalve V8
 

Hi David,

Attached photo shows the water jacket openings I mentioned in previous post.
My '46 engines have the two large round bottom openings.

Cheers,

Just realized, I don't think a divers helmet distributor would fit a post war block.

Looking at a picture of the mounting holes on one, they would not line up with the front timing gear cover as shown in one of the previous photos. Unfortunately I haven't got one on hand to compare so am relying on photos only.

I believe it is possible to mount a later model crab distributor on an early model engine using an adaptor such as one sold by Mac's but not the other way around.

Perhaps another flathead Ford person can confirm this.

Cheers,

Distributors
 

That is my understanding, Jacques

It (ie using a helmet dizzie) is if you use the earlier camshaft, but why would you? That would seem to be a backward step to me. But I suppose if that is what the assembler had to hand.

I went the other way, from a helmet to a crab dizzie with no problems: I don't remember having to use an adapter or change the timing gear cover, as I think the bolt holes lined up (but it is 20 + years ago now!)

Mike

Ford Flathead distributor adaptors
 

Hi Mike,

Attached is the 3 bolt divers helmet distributor to a crab distributor adaptor plate I mentioned.

Looking at it, and the description, a cam button spacer is needed for some stock shallow cam noses.

So perhaps the other way to use an earlier distributor on a post war engine and vice versa is to also change the timing gear cover. Again, I am not sure if this is possible so perhaps another person can enlighten us. I agree, I don't know why one would want to use a divers helmet distributor as opposed to a crab distributor on a later engine but nothing surprises me when it comes to the old engines!

So to get back to David's original question, once he inspects the water jacket openings in the block that will be the final arbiter of what approximate year his engine was manufactured. After that it will be easy to decide what, if any, items have been changed from original.

Cheers,


http://www.speedwaymotors.com/Flathe...olt,25076.html

Hey Everyone, thanks for all you input....Engine looks like a 1945 casting. There are no raised numbers on the RH front of the block. Numbers have been cast/stamped into the rear bell housing...

Anyway, my valve guide removing crowbar and 'top down' valve guide drift should be arriving any day now.

Once the valves are out, I'll remove the cam bearings for the acid dip.

Current plan is to have the engine re-bored (Currently standard), purchase new pistons. Install new std Main/conrod bearings. All crankshaft dimensions are within 0.001 of round.

Install new (single piece guides) valves, guides, etc.

I haven't measured the cam yet, but they seem quite expensive too.

The last thing will be to get my hands on some double-row 'V' belt water pumps.

NOPE.

The problem with most American sources (Books or Websites) is that they refuse to acknowledge that the Ford V8 continued to be produced throughout the war years. Production did stop in the US in favour of the 6cyl, but the V8 continued to be produced (and evolve) in Canada. Most of the "New" features that the Americans received in '46 models were the results of Canadian development and production. Don't believe the Yank "Fake News"!

Your crank dimensions are entirely consistant with the with the 1939-45 239ci 99A that is the correct engine for the Ford Blitz.

Any progress on finding a stamped engine number, not a casting number?

The Ford Manuals describe the method to interchange the "Diver's Helmet" and "Crab" distributors. The two timing covers are interchangable, and are the same height from the block to the dizzy mounting surface. 18-6019B has the 3 bolt mounting pattern for the Divers Helmet (and earlier) distributors, and 21A6019 has the 2 bolt pattern for the Crab, the '46-on and the Thames/Lucas styles.

The Camshafts however, are different. A long cam is used with short drive key of the 3 bolt dizzy's, and a short cam with the longer drive key of the 2 bolt style. If you need to fit a "Short" 3 bolt dizzy to a "Short" cam, in addition to swapping the timing cover there is a Ford spacer. If you are fitting a "Long" Crab dizzy to an earlier "Long" cam, then the Speedway style spacer will provide the additional length.

This might be necessary in wartime if you are maintaining a fleet of LP2 Carriers or MCP trucks with the Divers Helmet dizzys, and a replacement engine of the Crab style is supplied. To maintain commonality, you might want to replace the Crab with a Divers Helmet?

Attachment 93002 Attachment 93006

Attachment 93003 Attachment 93004 Attachment 93005

Jee, haven't they got expensive?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1937-to-1948...ZZAm0z&vxp=mtr

That number cast into the bellhousing is not the engine serial number or model, it is either a date code or a lot number for the block casting. I have a couple of engines here with similar numbers (Pic attached of "F641"), but have not yet found a way to decipher the codes. You might find the engine model number, 99A, cast near the top of the RH water pump. I've never seen it cast on the bellhousing part of the engine like the US and post-war Canadian examples. As mentioned, the majority of online sources of ID info for the Ford V8 is based on US production, and very little on Canadian WW2 engines.

The engine serial number will be stamped on either one of the 4 available corners of the valley cover mounting flat (or maybe not at all), or on the gearbox bellhousing. See THIS THREAD for an example.

While your engine does have a single row pulley RH water pump, I can also see that it has a double row crank pulley, so I would be willing to gamble that it is still possibly the original engine, or at least the correct truck type, and that someone in the mists of time has replaced that water pump with a cheaper and more easily obtained car pump.

Attachment 93066 Attachment 93067

When it was fitted with duals, there was a spacer fitted to the front hub to allow correct steering geometry with the offset "Dual" rim. If you're going back to 12.00-20's on single rims, you will need to remove the spacer to get correct steering again. The spacers were made by the Aust Army for fitment to to 3 ton tippers.

Thanks Tony! Appreciate the information........

I've also got 3 out of 4 Shockabsorbers apparently seized? Has anybody had any experience in un-seizing these? I imagine you can't get new ones :fry:.... But I'd like to get them moving at least. Not sure if I'll ever need them to work as designed......With those springs I dont think I'll really notice the difference crawling through the bush....