MLU FORUM - Indian Pattern bodies

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Indian Pattern bodies

Over the years, we have seen quite a few CMPs trucks with “Indian Pattern” bodies. These are not official designations, but a name given to all MCP and CMP truck with bodies which were built in India.

The Indian Army was a large user of MCP and CMP vehicles – see Revised 1942 S/M Contracts Listing – and assembled both complete vehicles knocked down for shipping, but also chassis/cowls with locally made cabs and /or bodies.

My interest is in gathering information about the Indian Pattern bodies for modelling and restoration purposes. These bodies were of composite construction, consisting mainly of wood with angle iron reinforcements, similar to military truck bodies as manufactured in Great Britain at the day.

For now I’m focusing on the CMP range of vehicles with these wooden bodies.

15-cwt: both 4x2 and 4x4 – see Indian Pattern 15-cwt GS truck

FAT: Chevrolet CGT and Ford FGT – see Indian Pattern FAT

3-ton GS truck: today, I found some new pictures on the IWM website of 3-ton GS trucks with bodies of the same construction:

Source: http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205208610
Attachment 78392
"Under close supervision, Japanese prisoners of war load a lorry with crates of munitions from the former Japanese ammunition store in limestone caves at Batu, Selangor State, near Kuala Lumpur. These bombs and shells were later dumped at sea in the Straits of Malacca."

Source: http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205208991
Attachment 78394
"Japanese prisoners of war sit in the shade of lorries they have just loaded with some of the 100 tons of supplies flown daily into the city of Bandoeng by Dakota aircraft of 31 Squadron, Royal Air Force. Due to ambushes and sabotage by Indonesian nationalists on the roads between Batavia and Bandoeng, the only secure supply route to the latter city was by air."

Source: http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205209018
Attachment 78393
"Transport of the 2nd Battalion, Frontier Force Rifles (26th Indian Division) that carried men and material to establish a strongpoint just outside the British held sector of the town of Medan in Sumatra."

Source: http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205209016
Attachment 78395
"Troops of the 2nd Battalion, Frontier Force Rifles (26th Indian Division) unload material from their vehicles to construct strongpoints just outside the British held sector of the town of Medan in Sumatra."

Always interested to learn more about the construction and use of these truck bodies!

Thanks,
Hanno

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hanno Spoelstra (Post 218365)

3-ton GS truck:

Here's one more photo of a 3-tonner:

Quote:

Originally Posted by nuyt (Post 20467)

I am not sure if this is any use to you Hanno, they are from beeldbank: 459846 and 463135.

http://www.mapleleafup.net/forums/at...1&d=1098553150

Edited to add missing photos:

Attachment 124842 Attachment 124843
Source: Dutch National Archives (http://proxy.handle.net/10648/aefe67...8-003048976d84 | http://proxy.handle.net/10648/af085a...8-003048976d84)

Some more 3-tonners, linked from CMPs in Asian campaigns:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Les Freathy (Post 61974)

Also in Burma this 3 ton CMP with soft top and high sided wooden body
http://www.mapleleafup.net/forums/at...0&d=1164656569

Quote:

Originally Posted by Les Freathy (Post 62044)

A 3 tonner with local body note the short overhang at the rear could this have been designed as a gun tractor, and are those truck side panels on the upper slope of the makeshift bridge
http://www.mapleleafup.net/forums/at...5&d=1164738801

Repost of an earlier reply in Bombay Chev, now with updated link and screenshot:

https://www.britishpathe.com/video/V...HAH-TAKES-OATH

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nick Balmer (Post 20687)

Hello Hanno,

The same file on the following frame has a very good overhead shot of a CMP Number 11 cab?

http://imagen.britishpathe.com/scrip...00000009&sif=0

This must be a very early example of an Indian Pattern body on a CMP chassis, as distinct from a militarised civilan chassis.

I beleive the troops are Madras Sappers and Miners, as the type of turban they are wearing was I beleive unique to them.

Regards

Nick Balmer

"Thanks Nick, excellent shot of a type of CMP I have never seen before. Must be an Indian assembled one, as it has typical features like the soft top cab without windshield and basic angle-iron-and-wood GS cargo body. This must have been the forerunner of the other Indian pattern 15-cwt CMP you spotted on Pathé."

Attachment 110674

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hanno Spoelstra (Post 218363)

15-cwt: both 4x2 and 4x4 – see Indian Pattern 15-cwt GS truck

I am re-posting these pictures here as the thread linked above is now missing.

From what I can see these Indian Pattern 15-cwt bodies had the same dimensions as the No1 Australian body, and were very similar in construction.

Attachment 111051
Source: https://flic.kr/p/d9qznQ

Attachment 111050
Courtesy of Colin Picket

Another Indian Pattern 15-cwt truck lurking in the background.

"Marmon-Herrington armoured cars in the streets of Aleppo, 22 July 1941."

Attachment 111977
Source: https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/i...ject/205203562

Here's an interesting variation. 1938 model Ford truck with Indian made body, this has a higher sides than other Indian bodies.

As with many vehicles in the North African desert, these were captured by the German Army.

Attachment 112859

Attachment 112860

Hi Hanno, If it is any use to anybody the carrier in post #2 is an Armoured O.P.MkIIIw that would likely have rolled out from the Dagenham Ford plant in Jan 1942.

"Chevrolet Delivered the Goods to the Forces Battling Tyranny"

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hanno Spoelstra (Post 218363)

For now I’m focusing on the CMP range of vehicles with these wooden bodies.

15-cwt: both 4x2 and 4x4 – see Indian Pattern 15-cwt GS truck

The original (now missing) thread included a link to this July 2006 article in Hemmings Classic Car: https://www.hemmings.com/blog/articl...-ball-express/

It makes for interesting reading, although GM Canada's effort is grossly neglected. One remark is all they get:

"General Motors of Canada’s Chevrolet Division was extensively involved in the war effort as well, building a forward-control utility vehicle on a 101-inch wheelbase–with a bowtie on the radiator cover, no less–that was widely used by British, Canadian and Australian forces throughout the war."

But the article contains some previously unseen pictures. I wonder what else is lurking in the archives....

Attachment 113359
"GM of Canada’s Chevrolet engineers designed AWD trucks for Brits and Aussies"

Attachment 113360
"For jungle use, Chevrolet produced 4×4 ambulances with high-floatation tires"

Attachment 113358

Except that the "AWD Trucks" and the "4x4 Ambulances" shown are both 4x2 vehicles.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tony Smith (Post 268648)

Except that the "AWD Trucks" and the "4x4 Ambulances" shown are both 4x2 vehicles.

Yeah... and they weren't made "for jungle use" either.

Quote:

3-ton GS truck: today, I found some new pictures on the IWM website of 3-ton GS trucks with bodies of the same construction:

Quite a few of these found their way into Dutch service in the East Indies so it seems!

source: https://nimh-beeldbank.defensie.nl

Note the wooden Indian Pattern body, indicating this C15 was assembled in India.

"Chevrolet C15 4x2 truck towing fuel bowsers at an airfield in Burma, 27th March 1945. It belongs to a formation using 33 Indian Corps' sign. Probably an AOP Flight/Squadron, combined Army/RAF."

Attachment 120911

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hanno Spoelstra (Post 277626)

Someone commented "These are Stinson L-5 must be US Airforce", to which Nick Balmer replied:

Quote:

There was a US Army Air Corps force called the 1st USAAF Air Commando Group, that was led by Colonel Philip Cochrane that was specifically attached to the Indian Army in Burma and which worked very closely with the Indian Army. It operated several types of aircraft including Mustangs, Mitchell bombers, C47 and also Stinsons.
The Stinson pilots were very highly regarded in the latter part of 1944 and into 1945 as they developed Casevac services, coming into land just behind the forward troops, often landing on river sandbanks, dry rice fields, and picking up stretcher borne casualties for evacuation to forward clearing stations.
I expect that this photo shows one of these temporary airstrips at a casualty clearing station, not far behind the frontlines.
These pilots saved an awful lot of Commonwealth troops lives, reducing the time from the sepoy or soldier being hit, until they were in an operating theatre greatly.
"The commanders' hopes and the soldiers' morale rose sky-high. Now, if we got hit in the middle of Burma, we would not be left under a bush to die."

From the Time Life archives: "Singapore On Tin And Rubber | Date taken: 1941 | Photographer: Carl Mydans"

Fordson WOT with Indian Pattern body:
Attachment 121636
Source: https://images.google.com/hosted/lif...7320a7e62.html

Plus another Ford:
Attachment 121637 Attachment 121638
Source: https://images.google.com/hosted/lif...8ac43ac74.html

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alex van de Wetering (Post 269213)

Quite a few of these found their way into Dutch service in the East Indies so it seems!

Indeed - here is another one in 1947 at Wonokromo, Soerabaja, Java.
It looks like a late F60L with the Indian made wooden GS body pressed into service as a water tanker.

Attachment 124846
Source: Netherlands Institute for Military History (https://nimh-beeldbank.defensie.nl/f...3-0fa0d2c44da6)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hanno Spoelstra (Post 282062)

Indeed - here is another one in 1947 at Wonokromo, Soerabaja, Java.
It looks like a late F60L with the Indian made wooden GS body pressed into service as a water tanker.

And the Trailer? It looks well constructed with 20" CMP wheels. Canadian?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tony Smith (Post 282064)

And the Trailer? It looks well constructed with 20" CMP wheels. Canadian?

IIRC there were no 4-wheel trailers with 20” wheels manufactured in Canada. Would have to check my sources to be sure.

As well, the drawbar of the trailer is much lighter construction than any of the 4 wheeled trailers of Canadian manufacture that I have seen. Also, no visible braking system, either over-run or connections for air or electric brakes (or mechanical/cable like some gun brakes).

Variation on a theme: Indian-made 15-cwt GS body fitted on a Ford chassis/cowl:

Attachment 126859 Attachment 126858
Source: https://www.facebook.com/groups/8596...20644101338359

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hanno Spoelstra (Post 284344)

Variation on a theme: Indian-made 15-cwt GS body fitted on a Ford chassis/cowl:

That does look odd without the headlights in the fenders. Was there a Ford version without headlights in the fenders?

The inside edges of the guards (wings?) do not sit well with the grill (grille?), so I would suggest that these are 1940/41 truck guards on a sedan/pick up.

Cross posting a few replies on FB to here:

Ian McCallum:

Quote:

Hanno Spoelstra strange vehicle. RHD 39/40 car/commercial front end and on 900x13? Not sure what they've done to the wings however as no indication of headlight cutouts plus grill has centre section missing and front grill sections slightly repositioned. From the scuttle back totally true local made. 🤔 camouflage indicates in the ME?

Nick Balmer:

Quote:

Rick Cove Caunter schemes were often applied to Indian assembled vehicles in India before they were issued and passed to the Middle East.

The way the scheme was applied varies quite a bit. Vehicles like the Indian Pattern Carriers being built by Tata left the factory with Caunter schemes applied strictly by the book.

Other assembly plants in India were less strict in how they masked the vehicles before the three colours were applied.

As Ian McCallum has explained this vehicle is a bit odd, as it has features in the bonnet and wings that are not "standard."

India was receiving American civilian pattern vehicles in increasingly large numbers were imported during 1938 to 1940,. Most were imported to serve the civilian market. Many like this one chassis bonnet only import became buses with locally made bodies.

When it became clear that war with Germany & Italy was about to start, the Indian Army was not initially expected to be at risk of attack, so they were at the end of a long list of higher priority countries and units for delivery of military vehicles.

This left the Indian army which was well aware of the force multiplying value of wheeled vehicles as a rest of the the Mohmand and other campaigns on the NWFP from 1936 inwards faced with being unable to purchase military trucks from its traditional suppliers in Britain.

The Indian Army set about purchasing and requisitioning many Ford & Chevrolet civilian pattern vehicles from main dealers in cities like Calcutta, Bombay & Madras, as well as requisitioning cars from civilians.

These vehicles were then militarised, generally by applying a coat of paint, with very limited changes except to fit wooden bodies. Carpenters were everywhere in India, and wood was readily available, unlike steel that was in very short supply in India, and very hard to purchase from abroad.

The modified civilian vehicles tended to stay in India after about 1941, as huge numbers of vehicles were required to support the recruitment and training of the huge volunteer forces that were raised in India, and which went on to serve around the World.

These modified civilian vehicles appear in the background to many wartime photos of major Indian cities and cantonments.

It is very likely that this vehicle is one of those taken up from a civilian Ford dealership, then been fitted with an Indian Pattern body before being painted in Caunter. The British & Indian Armies occupied the oil fields in Iran during 1941, and had a large force deployed in Iran & Iraq until well into 1944.

These units were there to protect the oilfields and to bolster Turkey's wish to remain neutral, in the face of a possible Blitzkreig from Southern Russia, which seemed like a very real possibility during the autumn of 1942 and into 1943. It was feared that the USSR might collapse as it had in 1917-18, when Axis powers had been able to reach Baku.

As this vehicle has a British registration painted on its bonnet, it looks as if it was re-issued from Indian Army stocks, to a British Army unit.

Many units who were initially sent to Iran & Iraq, where initially very poorly equipped due to the huge requirements of fighting units in North Africa and the UK. As the war proceeded and the supply situation improved these units were progressively re-equipped with more modern equipment.

After the Battle of El Alamein, were a lot of the armoured units units involved in the break though battles had taken very heavy losses in tanks and men, many of these units were taken to Syria, and Iraq to reform and re-train. Many of the battle damaged tanks from El Alamein were re-built in workshops in Egypt from where they were re-issued to these training units in Syria & Iraq.

The areas of northern Syria & Iraq were hilly, and even mountainous, and had sparse populations, so they were ideal for large scale armoured unit training. Many divisions like the NZ and Polish as well as Indian Divisions worked up in these areas before being moved to Italy.

It is very likely that this truck had been involved in these theaters of war.

The sloping rear body panel is something that I have not seen before. Perhaps the body had been damaged and somebody wanted to tidy it up. It would not have been difficult to do with a saw and a hacksaw.

I also wondered if this truck might have been used to run out signal wires? Lots of 15 CWT's were used by Royal Artillery units fitted to cable laying. Radio silent was much easier to maintain if telephones were used between gun positions and battery HQ's.

Could the cut down tail gate and sides have been to make the laying and recovery of telephone cables easier?

Two more pictures of C15 4x2 trucks assembled in Indian with locally made wooden bodies:

Attachment 128052 Attachment 128053
Source: https://www.facebook.com/permalink.p...02029219824947

"An Indian tank crew shelter in the shade of their vehicle, Western Desert, 1942"

Attachment 128057
Source: https://www.facebook.com/Indian-Mili...46442045383660

“ The Dominions are well represented among the pilots of No 615 Sqn RAF "Churchills Own". An RAF Spitfire Sqn operating in Burma. Here are some of the pilots from the Commonwealth and Empire. Burma, April 1945. (AWM)

From left to right: Sqn Ldr Tim Meyer of Trinidad; Flt Lt AA Robinson of the Rookery, Felstead; Flt Sgt HV Watson of Stagg Hotel, Loghgilphaed; FO Peter Grant of Nightcaps, Invercargyll, NZ; FO EG Green of Montreal, Canada; FO Philip Archer of Nairobi, South Africa; WO EI Matthews of Cardiff and WO Don Fletcher of Manly, NSW. ”

Attachment 130885

“Consolidated Liberator B Mark VIs of No. 99 Sqn RAF, with their attendant ground crews, lined up at Dhubalia, India. 1944-45. (IWM)“

Attachment 130886

Source: https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?...3945034&type=3

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hanno Spoelstra (Post 277626)

The aircraft is displaying US national markings and it is clearly not a Stitson as that has radial engine so I believe it is a L-4 Grasshopper aka Piper Cub. If it had roundels markings I would be suggesting it was a US Lycoming engined Auster.

Quote:

Originally Posted by dcrfan (Post 289590)

I disagree Paul; it is a Stinson L5. The Piper's fuselage is not as rounded as the Stinson and has the engine partly exposed.

picture source: https://www.flugzeug-lexikon.de/ILA_...flugzeuge.html

Spotted in this film:

https://www.awm.gov.au/collection/C188826

It might be a Ford Hanno. The screen shot isn't clear enough for a positive I.D. It has the long pointy nosed bonnet , the Chev has a more rounded point to the bonnet. But the flat cowl does look like the Chev 1311X3

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike Kelly (Post 293345)

Spotted in this film: https://www.awm.gov.au/collection/C188826

Nice spotto, looks like a Chevrolet 1311X3 15-cwt 4x2 GS truck