1940 Break Down Chevrolet Holden MCP
 

Hello All,

Attached is an image sourced from the Australian War Memorial collection.

Does anyone know if there are plans available for the breakdown section of the truck?

How many of these 1940 Holden/Chevrolets would there have been?

Also what tonnage would the trucks be rated at? (Sometime later ...) from the second photograph's description they were 3 Ton

There seems to be very few photographs of the rear of these vehicles that show the details of the crane mechanism. I will keep hunting though!

Kind Regards
Lionel

Accessed November 20, 2016 from, https://www.awm.gov.au/collection/P02399.014
ID number P02399.014
Collection type Photograph

Object type Black & white
Physical description Black & white
Description Breakdown truck, probably Tobruk, Libya. c. 1941. Members of `C' Section, 6th Division Supply Column, Australian Army Service Corps (AASC), in the desert with their Chevrolet Breakdown truck (no. L1045).

Second Photograph...
Accessed November 20, 2016 from, https://www.awm.gov.au/collection/127753
ID number 127753
Collection type Photograph

Object type Black & white
Physical description Black & white
Description AUSTRALIA. LORRIES, 3-TON BREAKDOWN (AUSTRALIAN) NO.1. CHEVROLET. RIGHT SIDE VIEW, QUARTER FRONT.

There has been a breakdown crane on Gumtree for about 12 months, that is supposed to have come off a Chev army truck.
It is reasonably cheap and not a million miles away from you Lionel, it is at Tara near Dalby.

Ken

G'day Ken,

Well Spotted Ken. I did see that advertised a while ago. Only two photographs and neither show the full shape of the boom. It would have been handy if there were more photographs. Something to get an idea of scale off would have been handy to work out what size it is.

What can be seen looks like a single boom whereas the ones above in my earlier posting seem to be twin boom arms that have a lot of box work above them as bracing. The CMP breakdown trucks had an "I" beam type.

Perhaps it should be described as crane fitted to an ex-Army truck at some point of time? Not necessarily an Army crane fitted to an Army truck? It could be a crane used by engineers and not related to breakdown lorries.


The breakdown lorries seem to come in different capacities. The attached one seems to be a light weight version on the back of a CMP. Also too the CMP 6 x 6. Neither of which are a MCP type as in my first post.

Accessed November 20, 2016 from https://www.awm.gov.au/collection/024818/
ID number 024818
Collection type Photograph

Object type Black & white
Physical description Black & white
Description WESTERN DESERT, EGYPT. 1942-08-10. A STAFF CAR UNDER REPAIR BY NO. 1 AUSTRALIAN RECOVERY SECTION ABOUT 15 MILES BEHIND THE FRONT LINE ON THE EL ALAMEIN SECTOR. THE UNIT'S BREAKDOWN TRUCK WITH CRANE IS IN THE BACKGROUND.

Accessed November 20, 2016 from, https://www.awm.gov.au/collection/075276/Then the heavy weight on the back of a 6 by 6
ID number 075276
Collection type Photograph
Object type Black & white
Physical description Black & white
Description MADANG, NEW GUINEA. 1944-08-15. PERSONNEL OF THE 165TH GENERAL TRANSPORT COMPANY USING A 6 X 6 RECOVERY WAGON TO LIFT AND TOW A BROKEN DOWN 4 X 4 CHEVROLET TRUCK. IDENTIFIED PERSONNEL ARE:- NX125258 DRIVER N.S. RITCHIE (1); NX125172 DRIVER R.R. CAMPBELL (2); NX150330 PRIVATE R.N. GOODRUN (3); NX125244 PRIVATE G.B. BRAYSHAW (4); NX125253 WARRANT OFFICER I, A.R. BARNES (5).

Accessed November 20, 2016 from, https://www.awm.gov.au/collection/127839
ID number 127839
Collection type Photograph

Object type Black & white
Physical description Black & white
Description AUSTRALIA. TRUCKS, 3-TON BREAKDOWN (AUSTRALIAN) NO.4. LEFT SIDE VIEW.

Here is a Ford MCP version of the Heavy Weight Breakdown. Accessed November 20, 2016 from, https://www.awm.gov.au/collection/127755
ID number 127755
Collection type Photograph

Object type Black & white
Physical description Black & white
Description AUSTRALIA. LORRIES, 3-TON BREAKDOWN (AUSTRALIAN) NO.2. FORD. THREE-QUARTER BACK VIEW, RIGHT SIDE.
Unlike the other photographs the Ford has all the pioneer tools in place.


There are about 600 photographs at the AWM under "cranes" :eek: Looks like I have some homework in front of me!



Kind Regards
Lionel

Crane
 

It looks like a Heath Robinson contraption :giveup These cranes were designed when Meccano sets were very popular , Meccano must have had some influence ha

Is that first truck you pictured an MCP, or a Standard truck? I'm not familiar with the earlier Chevs, could you run through some of the MCP features of the WA and WB Chevs?

I thought the MCPs were more like the LRDG WB 30cwt Chevs, with heavier duty front axles and hubs to support the wider wheels?:

G'day Tony,

The MCP were basically civilian trucks that were modified to different extents.... a little to a hell of a lot... Oh a check on MLU and the wider internet has a difference of opinion "Modified Civilian Pattern" or "Modified Conventional Pattern" ...

Have a look at Cliff's explanation Accessed November 20. 2016 from, http://www.mapleleafup.net/forums/sh...02&postcount=7

There is a whole thread devoted to MCPs Accessed November 20. 2016 from, http://www.mapleleafup.net/forums/sh...d.php?p=147431

In the case of my truck - it must have been made early in 1940 and when compared to a local 1940 truck that was bought new for a sugar cane farm, so it was not "borrowed" by the military - there is very little differences between the two trucks. By 1941 more in-factory modifications were taking place.

Hmmm I need to take more photographs of my mate's Chev - I do not have a photograph of his windscreen. Oh my mate's truck is the pretty blue one :)

Kind Regards
Lionel

39
 

Pic P02399.014 is a typical 1939 model. The 39 has the earlier round separate instruments , plus bullet headlights and the different grill.

Hello Mike,

Both my mate and my Chevrolet trucks have the bullet lights and integrated or composite gauges set in a rectangular cluster. Also both mine and Merv's grille both have 16 horizontal bars. I cannot remember which whether the 1939 had one less or one more horizontal bars on the grille. Both trucks are also plated Holden's 1940. The photographs of my truck were taken when I first saw it in Dalby and I was preparing it for a tilt truck ride to its new home.

The previuus owner of my truck installed the external fuel tank. Merv upgraded the 6 volt system from a generator up to a 12 volt system with an alternator. My wiring is stock 6 volt generator. Oh and Merv put a 1950's chrome label "Chevrolet" on his engine hood's side shown in an earlier photograph.

In the Second last - bottom photograph you can look at the extreme right and just see the rectangular gauges cluster. The photo was taken originally to show that Merv's truck had a pretty lining on the door - where mine does not. Whether it had one in the first place and it has since fallen off I am not sure.

The last photograph shows what the blurry image is in the passenger footwell of the second last photo is. It is a display plaque that Merv puts up during truck shows. Merv's father bought the truck new and it is still in the shed on the same sugar cane farm.

Kind Regards
Lionel

Hmmmm
 

Hi Lionel

No your 1940 model doesn't have the bullet headlight shells. Look at the first pic you posted in this thread - it depicts the 39 model which has much longer headlight shells, shaped like a bullet , the 1940 model headlight shells, in comparison, are short and stubby. Not sure where this thread is going.... it's all over the place :confused

I'm trying to determine why Lionel thinks they are all MCP trucks, they look like Standard trucks to me.

What the thread is about is breakdown trucks. This is what the subject line originally read. The "modified" means a comparison between a show room available civilian/conventional pattern truck and things that have been changed, ergo "modified" by the military. My truck's windscreen was not something available to civilians on the local Holden distributor's show room floor. Therefore, does it not make sense that mine is indeed a Modified Civilian/Conventional Pattern truck?

Also I have physical evidence - from the manufacturer's plates that my truck was made in 1940. Merv's truck also has manufacturer's plates that also clearly state that it was made in 1940. Despite this I am informed that my truck was made in 1939!!!!

So let's get back to it Breakdown trucks that were on a civilian/conventional chassis. Ones that were modified by the military or changed in the factory from their fully civilian specification and modified according to military specification. It could be taken that simply fitting convoy lamps is a "modification". Modification goes from a 1% change to a 100% change from the original civilian/conventional source.

Yes Tony, All the vehicles that you posted were modified by the military. Yes they were on the same factory line as the fully civilian trucks however they at some time in their production were diverted to have things changed on them according to military specifications of the time. Or after their delivery to the military they were modified - so they become Modified Civilian/Conventional Pattern trucks. As in "Modified" ..... "civilian" or "conventional" .... "pattern".

My early photographs were meant to show how in some cases very little changes were made between a 100% civilian (Merv's truck) and my truck that was built for the military 1940 and "modified" in the factory early in World War II.

Kind Regards
Lionel

Lionel, your title of this thread is what I am inquiring about. You say "MCP". An MCP is a distinct model by the factory, with specific mechanical and detail differences, not simply Khaki paint or blackout lights. The Army used quantities of both Modified and Standard trucks, not all trucks employed by the Army are "MCP by default" if they are not CMPs. A Breakdown body placed on a Standard truck chassis is still a Standard truck, even if it is ordered by the Army.

I think you're getting overly sensitive about this. Who said your truck was made in 1939? Not Mike, who said: "Your 1940 model doesn't have the bullet headlight shells. Look at the first pic you posted in this thread - it depicts the 39 model which has much longer headlight shells, shaped like a bullet, the 1940 model headlight shells, in comparison, are short and stubby". Do you see the difference Mike has pointed out to ID the first truck as a 1939 and the second pic as a 1940? He was only keeping the discussion to Breakdown trucks.

My apologies to both Mike and Tony,

Mike's summation is a pretty accurate portrayal of the last couple of months and the apparent immediate future. Either I have a target on my back :no4:; or I have had a cavalcade of black cats crossing my path :bang: Needing new contact lenses doesn't help much either in the sight department. I missed the "Pic P02399.014" part of Mike's message.

I think Nietzsche and the "that which does not kill you makes you stronger" has a lot to answer for! :fry:

Kind Regards
Lionel

salvage
 

Getting back to the cranes and Chev trucks.

Recycling is a modern idea? No, look at this. Is that a MCP Chev and a Me 109 ?

https://www.awm.gov.au/collection/F01832/

Sad thing is, people are still doing this type of thing in 3rd world countries, for maybe 50 cents a day profit.

Hello Mike,

Thanks for the movie. To hazard a squint I would guess that is a Ernest Holmes Twin boom crane. It looks different to the other option of the era a Gar Wood crane. The Holmes cranes had a circular central pipe with diamond shaped external bracing. The Gar Woods of similar capacity were twin booms too. However each side of the boom was made up of two rectangular beams laying parallel on the horizontal and they had series of internal diagonally placed braces.

The CMP Gar Wood accessed November 21, 2016 from, http://www.coachbuilt.com/bui/g/gar_wood/gar_wood.htm Check out the slipstream buses too in the Gar Wood site. The photograph with the star on the door

Holmes Wrecker on CMP Accessed November 21, 2016 from,
http://tow411.yuku.com/topic/98900/S...s#.WDLqEn0wARk The CMP photograph taken from the rear view

It is a shame that the two Australian Army breakdown cranes are not as easy to identify.


A bit like recycling not being a new thing - I did not figure that Holmes made a tilt tray truck back in 1916. I thought they were a much more recent thing! The flatbed is chain drive and all the functions of the bed are cable powered. Photograph accessed November 21, 2016 from http://www.ebay.com/itm/1916-Ernest-...VVjugc&vxp=mtr

Kind Regards
Lionel

Could this be it?
 

Hello All,

Could this be the same crane as on the back of the two Australian Army trucks? It is described as "M. E Breakdown Crane". This photograph of this crane appears amongst a tribe of Holmes Cranes so it might be just an efficient use of space on the webpage or it could be a model of a Holmes crane?

I cannot make out if the bottom line says, "Lifting load Front or Rear of 4, 6 or 10 ton" ? The other graphic next to the photograph seems to be a descriptive page. The two pages refer to 4, 6 and 10 ton capacities ...

It is a Accessed November 21, 2016 from, http://www.recoveryvehicles.com/history

It is a shame it is such a small photograph on their web site!

Also I cannot find any rear view shots of the Australian Army trucks to view the detail.

Kind Regards
Lionel

A new view found
 

Hello All,

I just found a new photograph that actually shows the rear view of the breakdown cranes

Do they look more like the M.E Breakdown crane pictured in my last message?

What are the two horizontal boards just below the towing hitch?

Would the lights be converted headlights or were they proper flood/spot/work lamps?

Accessed November 23, 2016 from, https://www.awm.gov.au/collection/000365
ID number 000365
Collection type Photograph

Object type Black & white
Maker Parer, Damien Peter
Place made Australia: Victoria, Melbourne, Broadmeadows, Broadmeadows Camp
Date made c December 1939
Physical description Black & white
Description BROADMEADOWS - BREAKDOWN CARS OF MOTOR TRANSPORT. ARMY. TRAINING IN AUST. MOTOR TRANSPORT. (NEGATIVE BY D.P.).


Kind Regards
Lionel

Fold-out Stabilising Legs for using the crane for heavy lift?

Cheers Tony,

Thanks for the reply Tony. Much appreciated

Do you reckon that the breakdown cranes on the Chevys are the M. E. Breakdown Crane?

From some angles they look a close match - then sometimes they do not! :coffee

It is a shame that the AWM could not have added one more line to their description - such as "Breakdown cranes manufactured by .... and model number .... crane capacity ...."

Kind Regard
Lionel

Hello All,

Woohoo - a possible breakthrough via a lightening fast email response from Mr Mike Saward from Recovery House in Hertford. Thank you so much Mike :thup2:

Mike identified that the M. E. Breakdown crane is manufactured by Mann Egerton crane in Norwich - Mike provided the link to this site Accessed November 23, 2016 from, http://www.oldclassiccar.co.uk/vinta...ertoncrane.htm. It shows the 10 ton version with two hooks. Maybe the lighter capacity cranes had less hooks?

Thank you again Mike .... :salute:

Wow close to midnight here - how did that happen? I had better sign off

More research into cranes tomorrow :)

The advertisement says "write for a catalogue which gives full details...." Umm I wonder? Teehee!

Kind Regards
Lionel

Hi Lionel,

I can't answer all your questions, but I believe that the two "boards" you see are not boards at all, I think they are possibly called spreader bars, and are basically tubular in shape, with fittings on the end to attach to the towed vehicle. When the towed vehicle is suspended from the crane, the bars each pivot from the centre of the breakdown truck, are chained to the front of the load, and basically form an A frame to keep the towed load firmly spaced from the breakdown truck, stopping it from swinging. That's what they look like to me anyway, someone may know for sure.

If you search for "breakdown" on the AWM site, you will see some of the later Ford breakdown trucks with very similar equipment.

Here's a picture of something similar in use.

Cheers,

Allan

Hello Allan,

Thank you for the tip about the objects being spreader bars. Is the photograph you are referring to about the Ford's with the spreader bars? Accessed November 24, 2016 from https://www.awm.gov.au/collection/127758
ID number 127758
Collection type Photograph

Object type Black & white
Physical description Black & white
Description AUSTRALIA. LORRIES, 3-TON BREAKDOWN (AUSTRALIAN) NO.3A. FORD. THREE-QUARTER REAR VIEW, LEFT SIDE.

Was the Ford a Marmon-Herrington conversion with tandem axles? Was it then even more modified into a 6 x 6 configuration?

I found a site last night that showed what kit was fitted to and stored in the CMP version of the twin boom Holmes or Gar Wood cranes. It was that extensive that the kit took up more space than the truck itself when it was spread out on the ground as a display. I just realised I did not save the link ... :bang:

Kind Regards
Lionel

crane
 

Would they have imported the cranes from the UK ? Seems unlikely . I would have thought they manufactured the cranes here to a design ?

Hello All,

It is not the same site with all the kit that I found last night. However, this one has some close up photographs of the Gar Wood CMP version of a breakdown truck. Accessed November 24, 2016 from, http://www.wheelsofvictory.com/CMP%20wrecker.html.

There is a close up shot of what Allan identified as Spreader bars in the range of photographs

They have Holmes Crane site too.... but for the Diamond T Wreckers

Kind Regards
Lionel

G'day Mike,

As I think you mentioned earlier with the Meccanno School of Crane Design it would not be too hard to have different companies making very similar cranes or the same crane made under licence. All the companies of the time had to work with the same materials and same engineering techniques and calculations.

Kind Regards
Lionel

Hi Lionel,

Yes, that's one of the pictures. There are several others showing both 4 and 6 wheel, MCP and CMP trucks which you would have found. They all appear to have some sort of those bars fitted.

Cheers,

Allan

Without wanting to stray too far from the original purpose of your thread, the short answer is, yes, the Fords were 6x6 M-H conversions with the rear-most axle driven via a splitter over the first rear axle.

There have been a few previous discussions of the M-H drive arrangements on here, it gets quite detailed, but well worth reading.

Cheers,

Allan

Hi

Attached is a memo and drawing related to the placement of the stabilzation bars.

Matt

G'day Matt,

OMG!!! how in the world did you manage to track the PDF down??? :note:

Is this one of the Australian War Memorial held books for the Breakdown trucks that I have a mate in Canberra trying to make time to visit for me? For example, the Trucks 3-ton breakdown (Aust) no. 4 Chevrolet 6 x 6 held in their library.

Thank you so much for posting it. :cheers:

Kind Regards
Lionel