Hi Mike, interesting thought to make a complete drive train but I think I'll go with plan "A" :) That's what they look like on the underside. It is definitely not pretty but 'What the eye doesn't see, the heart doesn't grieve' and I won't tell anyone if you don't :nono: A bit of patching as well. I will be spending the rest of my day riveting.

Thanks Colin, I appreciate you putting up those images.

Regards

Mike :salute:

I need some more 5/16 rivets for my floor and I only have a lot of 3/8 but I found a place in Australia that have them and they're only about 25cents each so I have ordered some. In the mean time I thought I better get on with refurbishing the wheel stations and what a job that has been.
These must have been on there for decades as it has taken me 3 days to get them off with the help of lubricant, porta power, Jack hammer, Swearing, sledge hammer. Without the portapower, there is no way I would have got them off.

There is a combination of English wheels and Australian wheels on there. It is quite rewarding when the last one comes off and a big sigh of relief. In case you were thinking that the Porta Power was just sitting on the end of the axle, I machined up a solid spacer that held in position so it wasn't dangerous.

For those that don't know, The Australian Carriers and the Vickers light tank (MkVIb) had wider wheels than British and Canadian carriers.
The Wheels Colin refers to as British, are of the same style as a std. U.C. wheel, but are wider. They are the original VLT MkVIb wheels.
The track has the wider spaced horns and Australia adopted this track for its LP2 and LP2A series of carriers. (in doing so, it changed the spoke style of the wheels) This move (wider wheels/ track horns) apparently made the Australian carrier, less likely to throw its track.

Wow, Colin, that is an entire project in its own right. There probably isn't a single movable fitting there that has actually done so in a VERY long time.

Interesting about the wheels and tracks being similar to the Australian Pattern Carrier. A couple of the suspension spring sets look a bit suspect. Do you know if they were shared with the APC as well? That could make things a bit simpler as you move deeper into this part of the restoration.

Hope the weather was cooler for you over those three days.


David

Lynn,

Good point regarding the effect (ie less likely to throw tracks) of the design changes, however the reasons for the variations in design from the British MG/Bren carrier were not in regard to improvements in performance but "...firstly to standardise certain parts with similar parts on the light tank [Vickers Mk6A] and secondly to suit Australian production methods. The War Office was not advised before the variations were taken in hand." (Dept of the Army Memo to Secretary Military Board, 22-10-1941).

These variations caused some considerable problems, particularly in the ME when units were handed both Brit and Aust built carriers, and the spares situation for the Aust carriers did not keep pace with the usage. Result: grounded Aust carriers where available Brit spares could not be fitted.

Mike :salute:

Mike, thanks for the info. my conclusions are based on what I have seen on the ground, and the odd old photo. My knowledge of actual history and details is somewhat lacking.
I made the incorrect assumption that the wider track/ wheels arrived with the MkVIB, but were obviously already in place with the MkVIA
There is a photo of new track going on A VLT in the desert and this is where I drew my conclusion that Australia had taken up Vickers track improvement when designing the LP2. If you know the photo, are you able to date it?
I assume these VLTs came from the Vickers factory already fitted with this wider wheel, design of track in the late 30s, when Australia first bought them?
With the longer track of the VLT, I see the potential for throwing track and I imagine the VLT would have had big issues with that problem, had it not gone to the wider rubber.
I note that in the same vein, the Loyd carriers had added cleats to its sprockets. (I am not sure if this was more about reducing the wear rate or to help "stabilise" the track?)
The Canadians later changed the design of the sprocket on its U.Cs. for similar reasons.
Again, thanks for the clarification. :note:

David, yes that was an epic and nearly as big as Ben Hurr :coffee fortunately it's winter here and around 18c most days. Most of the springs are more than just suspect but I have replacements.
Lynn/Mike, That is very interesting about the track. Unfortunately I don't have enough original wheels for both. For these tracks to come off, they would certainly have to be extremely loose as they certainly hug the sprocket at the front and the tensioner idler at the rear. Not to mention there is no track displacement. It is great that there is still information around about these tanks. The construction of these is really quite amazing.

For an attempt at clarity:
Australian carrier track is "lead plugged" (has a shorter plain pin, no head) The VLT (British wide horned) track has exposed formed heads as per British and Canadian carrier track.
The VLT in question came with wheels and rubber nominally 1/2"wider than carriers, but with spokes ("T" section) that look the same as British or Canadian wheels.
The Australian carrier wheels which (normally) have "H" section spokes are interchangeable, as is the track between the Aust. carrier and the VLT.

Colin, the track is most likely to come off when "sidling"(travelling along the side of a hill) It is not good practice to do this in a carrier. apparently we should go straight up and straight down. I don't know how the VLT goes in this situation.

Here's a few pics of the numbers and markings on one of the original Vickers wheels.

Now this raises an interesting question! As I am under the understanding that these tanks were made in 1936 as stamped on quite a few panels and the engine, but we never received the ten in Australia until 1939.
The date on the wheel looks to be 1938. So! were they made to aust specs in England prior to shipping, or were they made in Australia before they came here and changed once they arrived or needed replacing.
The Chicken or the Egg. I will have a close look at the other wheels to see if there is a clearer date.

Colin,

Tanks were normally purchased with a suite of spares, particularly fast wearing spares like wheel assemblies (the tyres chew out). It is rare indeed to have a tank survive its service life with the original 'when assembled' set of road wheels - normally these are changed as required. Spares were not always supplied 'up front' but on a yearly basis depending upon the terms of the contract. So it would not be unusual to have wheels manufactured and supplied after the tanks entered service.

In the case of the Vickers Mk6A, these were built as standard - I don't think there was any particular 'Aust standard' for that small batch - and they arrived circa Sept 1937, not 1939.

Wheels supplied as spares could have a number of production dates, and therefore those on the tank now could well have a range of production dates. It will be interesting to see what other dates/production details become evident as you blast the crud off the rest.

Mike :salute:

Mike, I think you have misunderstood the wheel part. I have some other English wheels that are the same as the English looking wheels on the Vickers but they are about 15mm wider than the English carriers ones. If fact what I will do is take a few photo's of the two side by side so the difference can be seen clearly. I have got enough original Vickers wheels to complete one and I'll have to settle for the carrier ones for the other. Beggars can't be choosers.

Wheels
 

Hi Colin , if you were cunning , you could turn the rubber off the old rims down to the steel and then get good LP ones and cut the hubs out of those and machine them back to the right size, and press them onto the original rims as a press fit....don't we just all love machining stuff! cheers Andrew.

Hi Andrew, a very interesting thought. I have already thought of trying to find a forklift replacement that I maybe able to machine down but I think your Idea is much better.
I have been caught up the last couple of weeks working on a friends big bus and finished it yesterday and now back on my priority. I have prepared the new floors and drilled them ready for riveting. I'm also waiting for my new air rivet gun to turn up as my big one packed up and my small one just doesn't cut it.

As you can see, I flipped them on their side to make it easier for riveting and drilling the last few that I just couldn't get to up side down. It is nice to work on clean hulls with clean steel.

Colin, what happened to Bob M's mold that was (I think)producing re rubbered LP2 wheels only a little west of you?

Looking a bit like a 1930's Vickers factory now, Colin. :)

David

Lynn, I think Hugh Davis got that mould but there is a couple of forklift places here that can re-rubber for me.
Dave, it is looking a bit like that :) of course that's not a bad thing. :D

True, try posting some "period pictures" in black and white to really make it look back in the day. Great work you are doing and I fully understand your statement on working with clean (rust free) steel.

Hi Colin. What is wrong with your gun?
I have a contact address for a guy in the states that supplied a new piston and clip for my second rivet gun.
I will find the email address if you want it. (contact supplied by Michael R.)
My two guns are both 1 1/16" bore. One is 4" stroke, the other an 8" stroke. Pistons are different lengths.
I could send you a gun to use, but that would be expensive. I'm sure you can sort one out closer.

James, I might just do that if I can change my phone to B&W.
Lynn, I have two guns, both very old and I purchased very cheap years ago. I would say the bores are worn as well as the pistons and the valves only work sometimes. As much as I like to get the best out of everything I have, I decided that as I have a lot of rivets to do on the two tanks it was the best decision to get a brand new one. Not to mention, I was trying to do a rivet the other day and the gun kept stopping and my wife was at the door listening to me cursing it :mad:, so she chirped in and said, " oi' instead of getting yourself all flustered and angry, why don't you just go and get a new one". So, as I'm not one to argue with my wife :fry:, I did just that. Purely to keep her happy of course :note: :sheep: :D

'Happy wife .... happy life!'

Mike (who has a happy wife) :salute:

These couple of pieces are for the underside transmission cover. One tank has a badly rusted one and the other was missing completely.

It must be surrounded by some rubber I assume as it was water tight.

Being sunday and I'm impatient, I needed some slot countersink bolts so I modified some hex bolts cut a slot with a thin disc. Job done. :)

Attachment 91900 Attachment 91901

Attachment 91902 Attachment 91903 Attachment 91904

6 wheeler lorry
 

Colin after the Vickers are finished, you will have to find and restore one of these 6 wheelers in order to cart the little tanks around . The opening scenes of this movie reveal all !

www.awm.gov.au/collection/F01129

Hi Colin,
Following your threads with much pleasure.
Will say I have always been a great fan of these little tanks.
Cannot add any more than my admiration for your efforts.
Kind regards Tim

I wouldn't think a rubber gasket would have to be very thick for those transmission cover assemblies, Colin. Do any of the surviving pieces of hardware give any clues as to thickness? Two or three millimetres would probably work just fine, if nothing useful shows up in any of the reference literature.

Looks like a seal around the perimeter bolt holes on the inner piece you have replicated, then perhaps another seal on whatever exterior cover plate was fitted, to snug up against the framed rim which faces to the outside of the hull. Not sure what will hold any cover in place at this point, however.

David