Well into making the body for the signal lights.

I had made the allowance for these when I cut the top of the turret.

The light socket is out of a M35 light I dismantled to get the parts. The glass lens I bought on Ebay that was in India and about as close as I could get to the original shape and I gave it some volts to test it works.
I now need to make the sliding mounting brackets.

Colin.

One of the photos in Post 834 shows a Vickers with one of these lamps deployed. Seems to be lacking the glass cover and the three steel studs look like they are completely above the top cover disc.

Perhaps someone can make more sense of the purpose of the lamp from this photo as it looks like if fully extended, it might be somewhat obscured by the cupola structure, except to the rear of the vehicle.

Some form of extendable Formation Lamp, perhaps?

David

David, it looks like the glass has broken and disappeared and the top plate has just dropped down. The nuts are still on the studs.

Rick

David, I would say they took the glass off for some reason, perhaps to change the globe or replace the broken lens. I have a very good drawing of the complete set up of the light. What I have made would be relatively accurate. That was great spotting from that post as I never picked that up. Great reference for me. I still need to trim my studs to suit yet.

These little parts are location clips to hold the light in the down or the up position. They are spring loaded and I still need to make the locators.

I have fitted one and it slides up and down very easily. I also need to bolt the handle on.

Very nice work, I must say! :note:
Would there be a rubber seal between the hull and top disc, to serve as a weather seal when in the 'down' position?

Owen.

What an interesting little lamp. Colin.

I wonder if it is multifunction in some way and served as an interior lamp in the down position?

David

David,
That is a very good idea !

David

Colin, Colin, Colin!

The nature of this little lamp is really starting to bug my gizzard!

When it is extended, the interior colour really stands out against all the exterior green paint, and it would be a fairly bright lamp in the dark when lit. All of that would logically seem to weight against its intention as a means of signaling, unless it was issued with some form of filter/shroud kit. Then, if it was issued with some form of kit, it appears the easiest way to install possible accessories would be in the extended position. In a combat situation, that could prove a very high risk task for the crew.

So I think about it a bit as being nothing more than an interior lamp. Seems over designed for that purpose, save for the rather restricted amount of interior room in the vehicle. The designers may then have decided for maintenance purposes, just make the lamp slide up above the vehicle. When done, slide it back down. That, however, raises (no pun) another issue: possibly preventing a lit lamp from accidentally being raised.

Do you have any wiring diagrams at hand that show the circuit for this lamp? At it’s simplest, I would expect to see an ON/OFF Switch located somewhere in series with the lamp. One could kick that basic circuit up a notch by inserting a spring loaded cutout switch in it to automatically shut the lamp off when it was raised for maintenance.

I notice in the last two photos you posted, an new little bit of metal work tucked into the lower bottom corner right below what is possibly the lamp handle support plate? That would be the perfect spot for locating a cutout switch for the lamp.

Then again, I could be totally out to lunch on all this...:wacko:

David

David,
As I said in an earlier post, this is a Signalling lamp, nothing more, nothing less, there was a signalling switch in circuit with it. There is no reason for it to be an interior lamp either as Festoon Lamps were fitted in the turret and lower hull. I was involved in the installation of the electrical system of the Australian Mk6a that was restored for the Jacque Littlefield Collection, about 15 years ago. See below a clip of the wiring diagram showing the lamp and switch.

regards, Richard

Thanks for posting the diagram, Richard.

I think the problem we sometimes experience today, in understanding vehicles designed and built 80 years ago, is we evaluate them with far more experience and knowledge than the people who built and operated them 80 years ago ever had available to them.

We can look at a Signal Lamp like this today and wonder why you would want to use a Signal Lamp that is obscured in a very large radius by a part of the vehicle to which it is fitted, why said lamp would not be directional to minimize detection by the enemy in the field and probably a whole host of other observations. When this vehicle was designed and built, these issues may very well have been oblivious to all involved until the concept was put into real life practice. And things evolved from that point.

An interesting example of us being lucky enough to be where we are today, because of all the things that came before us.

Great to see Colin’s work in keeping all the amazing little details of these fascinating little tanks, alive and well today, and available for future generations to appreciate.

David

What saddens me is all the information we have lost or didn't seek out when our veterans were still with us. We can sit in and operate these old beasts but there must have been hundreds of little 'tricks of the trade' that are lost to time. That said, there are times when you are operating one of these old vehicles and reach for, step on or otherwise do something and say to yourself "eureka, they must have done exactly the same thing back then!!"

The lamps...my 2 cents. I can see some red tab officer in his polished Sam Brown insisting on the lamps so he could more easily watch his troop of Vickers tanks keep in perfect, textbook formation while on maneuvers.

Duh!!!!!
 

'twas a British design........

'ray for the good old days!!!!!

Colin you should consider publishing a book or CD on your restoration.... certainly attracted a lot of followers on MLU.

Bob C

Thankyou all again for your comments and thanks Richard for the clarification of the signal lamp. I'm sure it was probably used for an interior light sometimes too as it would have been quite bright inside when lit. it has a toggle switch just to the left which I'm waiting on and next to that is a rack of some kind. I have shown a photo of an original but I am at a loss as to what it was used to store. It can't be for ammunition as it was too big. The flare rack is located next to it so I need some help with it's purpose.
Bob, yes it has attracted a lot of followers probably because of it's rarity. Nothing like leaving a legacy with your name on it. :)

Signal flag rack??

Do you have a VOL/CES list for the tank? That might provide a clue.

Mike

That's my guess too, located where it is between (signal) flares and what's more than likely a (signal) lamp. Later tanks and armoured cars had provision for signal flags so it's likely the Vickers had them somewhere, and flags also makes sense as the Vickers was designed in an era before reliable radio sets so signal flags would have been used in their stead. What may be different and needs to be investigated, is that this rack (if that's really what it is for) has several slots presumably for signal flags of different types. Later on they were the red/white semaphore style.

Just had a re-look at the wiring diagram. Not only does it call the lamp a signal lamp, the switch is called a signalling lamp key. That to me means a morse key for morse code signalling.

Hopkins 1937 Report extracts ...
 

I just remembered I had a copy of Hopkins' 1938 report on exercises with the Royal Tank Regiment in England in which Vickers MkVIA featured.

Concerning the Vickers Mk6A:

Page 4, para 11 (a): R/T: Light Battalion (ie with Vickers 6A) is equipped with No.7 sets...'

Page 4, para 11 (b): ' Lamp signalling: Used for sending messages in morse. The present type is fitted at the right rear of the turret of the Mk VIA light tank and operated by a Morse key. Not being of the shutter type, careful and slow sending is necessary since the filament takes an appreciable time to fade after the key has been released. A further disadvantage is evident in drill formations when vision is often obscured by other tanks. '

Page 5, para 11 (c) Flag: Flag signals shown in TTI 1930 page 170, have been cancelled. A new card of flag signals is now in use in mixed and 'I' Bns. Flags are unsuitable for use in the Light Bn.

Page 5, para 11 (d) Hand Signals: Flag signals are often employed when tanks are close ....

So, now to work out what 'TTI' is and find a copy to see the flag signaling instructions, as these were extant when the Vickers MkVIA was being designed. I don't think tanks carried semaphore flags, as these were in pairs on poles about a metre long.

Mike

I did mention signalling flags earlier and recall finding the details of them when we were working on Platypus, yes, that is what the rack is for. Have a feeling the morse key was in the turret, but no sign of the signalling lamp or parts.

There are smaller ones, the flag maybe 10" square with the wooden poles 18" or so. There were signalling alphabets and numbers designed for either one or two flags. I stand to be corrected but think these were what was referred to in later AFV stowage diagrams. At least I hope I'm right as that's what I have stowed in my Fox.

Thanks for the info as that does make sense. So would they have been wooden handle flags and have some kind of code that I may be able to look up and maybe get their design
Mike, unfortunately I don't have vol/ces list as that would be of great assistance. Since I started I have now accounted for about 75% of stowage and ces but things like that rack in the turret had me a bit stumped. Once again MLU to the rescue :note:

I will note, modern tanks still use flags on ranges to indicate safe/fire status.

Is it possible this was used during ranges or training to indicate when the tank was doing live firing as well perhaps?

A concept/idea.

Love the work, it's amazing in detail.

Brad

In your photo of the original Signal Lamp, Colin, I wonder what little gems of information might be hidden on the metal tag fastened to the lower right side of the assembly?

Also curious about the wiring. It looks cloth loomed that has experienced a number of aluminium paint over sprays during it’s lifetime, but is it possible it was a braided wire loom?

Nice to have photos like that to help sort long gone electrical fittings, clips and brackets.

I suspect with a project of this magnitude, if you kept a logbook of ‘Things to Revisit in More Detail’ for all the photos you have accumulated, it would be one very large book by now! Must be a great help a scattering of surviving Vickers are still about that can be visited and photographed for you.

Funny... an Xmas Rhyme just came to mind: ‘And visions of Vickers danced through his head!’

Cheers,

David

Hi David,
When I was called in to do all the electrical work on Platypus, there were scraps of wiring which were in braided wire sleeving. This sleeving is still available and I have used it on other British WW2 armour restorations. The hull and turret had been blasted and painted, with silver inside. While sitting inside with a lamp, I could see marks visible in the hull and turret where the cabling had run, and been clipped. This was where the metal had weathered over the years but the narrow area under the cable had not. A form of detective work! This helped me lay out the route of the cabling.

I did take a lot of photos, but unfortunately they were in a computer that failed.

regards, Richard

Great work there Colin.
Looking at the photo in post 1007, and continuing with the signal flag them, it looks like there's a series of rivets down the side and along the bottom of the bracket as well as the remains of what looks like canvas. Could I suggest that there's meant to be a canvas pocket that the flags dropped into to protect the flags from damage or getting dirty and the clips at the top held their wooden handles in place?

Thanks for your comments Brad!

David, I would love to know what it on that tag and I assume it would still be there somewhere in the US in the Collings foundation Vickers. I certainly have collected a lot of photos over the last couple of years and still find wonderful info every time I go back over them. Sometimes you don't know the information is there until a certain need arises and it has happened many times. Some of the photos that have been sourced by some MLU members has been of paramount importance for accuracy and knowledge.
I don't know the Xmas Rhyme you mentioned but it certainly fits with in my sleeping pattern :coffee:wacko:

Richard, it is a real shame you lost those photos on your computer as I'm sure there would have been a lot of extremely valuable information there. AS far as the braided wiring loom, again, I am very lucky to have a couple of feet of some original braid in the turret basket and I have just ordered some which should be here next week.

Russell, you are spot on. I do have a photo showing a leather bag that is riveted underneath the flag clips. Now that I know that it is for flags, the leather bag underneath makes a whole lot of sense.

I made a pin system for forming the clip bracket for the flags.

It certainly took longer to make the pins and plate than it did to bend the brackets. I will do a bit more fine adjustment after they are riveted on.

Colin.

Nice work setting up the form to make the clips. Just wondering, however, if the two clip strips you made were a test run? In the photo of the original assembly, it shows a seven lobe run of clips, which would hold six wooden flag handles, with a small half loop tab at either end.

Then again, its in the wee hours here, -30 outside, and my brain might be getting a wee bit frosty.

David