Summer 1945, Eibergen, Holland: please identify
 

"Who can identify the soldiers in this photo?"

A question often asked, even when few clues are available. In this case the picture was taken in the summer of 1945 in Eibergen, The Netherlands. Eibergen is a small town close to the Dutch-German border, just south of Enschede.

Attachment 70144

The soldier on the left was called "Dusty" and the one on the right was called "Mitch Claude / Cloude / Claud". Mitch came from Quebec.
They stayed in Eibergen for a longer period of time and the owner of this picture would like to be able to identify these soldiers, or at least their unit.

Who can help? Please post your input here, I have pointed out this thread to the owner of this picture.

Thanks,
Hanno

Hi Hanno,
Most people nicknamed "Dusty", have the surname Miller, so might be a clue to search.

questions
 

The rank appears to be identifiable as both being Snr NCO's, one CWO the other MWO, perhaps the RSM and CSM from the French Canadian infantry unit there at time? Le Régiment de Maisonneuve fought in Gronigen with the FGH and BCD's, which is a long way off, but I do not know the movement history of that unit. Due to the rank of these two there should be very few names to pick from. Le Régiment de Maisonneuve remained in Netherlands through December, 1945.

I am discounting the neck ties as not identifiable to colour between black and OD. I am not suggesting the Unit association based on the Province of origin for Claude being PQ, but I believe with that Francophone name and original information indicating he is from Quebec it is a common sense starting point.

There is a private museum in Neede that is dedicated to Canadian infantry and armoured units involved during 1944-1945. That resource, combined with help from Lt. Col. Bergeron here on MLU may be a good start. As well as Archives Canada and the Regimental museum(s).

Where did the picture come from, are there others with it that may give more detail, what is marked on the back, if anything, who knows the billeting history in the local area?

For what it is worth, 'Mitch' looks older of the two and he is wearing a wedding band. Also quite likely his first name is probably 'Mitchell', but as far as a search of Regimental Records goes, be sure to consider 'Mitchell' not being his first name, but rather his preferred name. Military records frequently have the name in full.

David

picture
 

Thanks Ross for the heads up.

I have seen that picture somewere before... i will search my library.

Not enough information for now to make a determination .

Le Régiment de la Chaudière ended the war in Emden. They then moved on to Utreck to wait for repatriation.

Les Fusiliers Mont-Royal, Le Régiments de Maisoneuve and the Van Doos ( R22R ) all had French speaking members and were in the general area in 45.

Good luck with your search.

Robert

Thank you for the leads!

I have passed on this link to Wilco, if he has anything to add I will post it here.

H.

Since "Mitch" came from Quebec, you should also consider Michel for his name, along with Jean-Michel. It was also common to have Jean or Joseph (or both) ahead of the name commonly used.

Agreed. "Mitch" might be an English-version of the French nickname, Mich' which would rhyme with MEESH.

summer 1945
 

Gents,
A little detail regarding the tie these most proud NCO's are wearing.
The famous canadian author Farley Mowat page 298 in his book ''The Regiment'' calls this tie the ''Zombie tie ''.
He recalls that during most of WW2 , Canadian NCO'S wore their battldress tunic buttoned up as officers wore open collar with shirt and tie.

Only from april 1945 onward were dress régulations changed for cause of uniformity.Reinforcements coming from Canada called 'Zombies '' because they had spent comfortably most of the war in Canada , wore the shirt and tie so everybody was ordered to do so .Them nobody., at first glance could differentiate an old hand from a newcomer .

The question of draftees vs volonteers was very controversial then.

Mowat adds that the tie was black wich is confirmed by the picture..

So the date of the picture is unquestionable. The identity of the two brave canadians is still unknown at this point.

Maybe if someone could enlarge the picture and figure out a unit ...

Happy New Year. Health and remembrance.

Neckties and Battle Dress
 

Not to contradict Farley Mowat, but Neckties were actually authorized for wear by Canadian Army Other Ranks in June 1943. This was promulgated in Canadian Army Routine Order 3333. They were permitted for wear when off-duty in barracks, for leave or walking out, working in offices or when attending lectures or similar indoor instruction.

The Army issue Necktie was indeed black although U.S. and British manufactured Neckties were also worn. Canadian ORs in Italy seem to be the first to embrace Neckties, as through Mediterranean Expeditionary Force stores they were being issued U.S. manufactured Enlisted Men's (EM) shirts which had collars; so obtaining U.S. EM Neckties was apparently not difficult.

Neckties being worn by Canadian ORs in England and NM Europe took a bit longer, late 1944, as for the most part the ORs were still being issued the standard collarless shirt which would have had to have been modified with a collar at the soldiers' expense. Units training in England may not have allowed OR's to wear Neckties, but by late 1944 OR collared shirts were being manufactured by the British and or course the ubiquitous U.S. EM shirt was being issued to Canadians in NW Europe.

Canadian Army 'Zombies'
 

The derogatory term 'Zombie' was indeed applied to Canadian Army conscripts during the Second World War. Unfortunately due to misunderstanding, prejustice or perhaps a little of both the term was at times loosely applied to the complete Canadian Home Defense Army. I have had Canadian WWII Overseas Veterans openly refer to the Home Defense Regiments and formations as 'Zombie' units. They were surprised to learn that these units contained a good proportion of volunteers who had through no fault of their own not been sent overseas.

Zombies and other beasts of burden
 

Thanks Ed for your detailed references.

Farlew Mowat was a Hasty P's in 1st Div. so he arrived later in the NWE theater of war.

The tie thing was new to the guys just arriving from the maelstrom of Italy.

In turn this opens up a whole new can of worms.... as they were called D Day Dodgers.

Some were called Zombies, some were Home Defense when they wanted to see action and others were called D Day Dodgers.

In the beginning some attacked ghosts in Kiska Alaska when the island had been deserted by the Japanese defenders .Then too many were killed and too many others captured after a month on Hong Kong by the same Japanese .Then there was the mystery of Dieppe.

Even with all the study , the visits of the place , the interviewing of some of the actors , i could never understand the meaning of Dieppe.

Then General Crerar wanted action for the too many restless Canadians that had been in England since 1939 , so there was Sicily and then Italy.

In the end , they finally made it to NWE and the Big show , the one portrayed in the Press made our way thru France, Belgium and then proceeded to liberated Holland.

All the while the RCAF guys had been sustaining dreadly casualties ever since 1939 and the RCN guys rode the North Atlantic in little boats called Corvettes. Unfortunately they were not speedy, comfortable sports cars but utilitarian uncomfortable tools for U Boat hunting . they were quite brave.

So call them Zombies, D Day dodgers , Home Defense Battalions or Corvette riders , doesn't matter.

All that matters now is that they served their country and that they all deserve our admiration.

They certainly have mine.

Robert

Wearing of Ties
 

Robert, the point of my e-mail was that the wearing of ties by the Canadian ORs in Italy was not new to the Corps when they transferred up to NW Europe, as the Canadians ORs in Italy were the first to embrace the wearing of ties in 1943. Farley Mowat's comment about ties is erroneous or a mistake at best and does not reflect the actualities of the time.

Another example of Farley Mowat never letting the facts interfere with a good story. For this reason, I do not give his writing or remarks too much authority. He left the Army as a very bitter man and retreated to writing as his own self-medication. Three generations read his books as gospel, and see what happens.

But - I loved The Grey Seas Under, the story about oceangoing tugboats out of Halifax. http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/7...rey_Seas_Under

Farley boy
 

Point taken gents.I take in stride all your comments and of course invite them .I am no Farley Mowat hugger.Just a lover of canadian military history.

I just started reading some of Mowat's accounts of his war service over the Xmas holidays, taking a break from the more serious work as a candidate of the Toronto Staff College.

It is fun to venture out of the official history accounts of the Canadian Forces.

I was foretold of his exagerations , inventions and other mindgames.

I caught him redhanded when he said the soldiers were preparing their equipment ,, ''Stens '', rifles and grenades before assaulting a Sicilain town...i knew they had the Thompson not the Sten at that time.

But then he wrote '' No bird sang '' in 1975 nearly 30 years after his service.

Still he has my admiration because he went to war for liberty, justice and freedom from tyranny for theirs, our father's and our children.

Cuddo's to one hell of a Hasty P , that drinking, swearing, exagerating Farley !!

15th Canadian Field Regiment RCA
 

Hello all,

I recently found a copy from the regimental history from 15th Canadian Field Regiment RCA and just finished reading the 300 page book.

This regiment consisted of:
RHQ
44th LAD, RCEME
E Troop RC Signals
17th Battery 15th Canadian Field Regiment
95th Battery 15th Canadian Field Regiment
110th Battery 15th Canadian Field Regiment

On May 26th 1945 this regiment moved from Barssel, Germany to Neede, Holland.
RHQ, 17th and 95th Batteries were quartered in Neede, 110th Battery went to Eibergen.

In the 110th Battery personnel list, E Troop, there is a BSM C. Mitchell, might be the person refered to by "Mitch Claude".
Concerning "Dusty", there is no one named "Miller" in 110th Battery but there is a Lt. W.C. Miller in 17th Battery and a L/Cpl W.E. Miller in E Troop Sigs.

Hope this helps.

Marco

Name
 

On the photo taken in Mai 1945 are sitting two Canadian soldiers. I am not familiar for searching soldiers, but yesterday I have got a name about the man sitting on the right site.
The information about him:
Comd. Post Staff:
M34913 BSM C. Mitchell TBSM

Sorry for all the wrong information, but there was not more. Who can help me to find family of this man. He was in 1904, and cannot live anymore. But he had in 1945 a son who was 16 years old.

Please, if you have information mail me

Thanks for all

Good job with the answer.

BSM is Battery Sergeant Major.

Can someone up Tinsel Town way get the military record from Tunney's Pasture for C. Mitchell, M34913, and see what the information reveals?