Thermostats
 

Just a quicky, who is and isn't running thermostats in their engines ?

Just about to install my engine, I have previously ran without but wondered if it would be best to use them this time around ?

Thermostats
 

Actually you need them , I put NOS ones in all my V8 engines , and temperature stays fine , when I didn`t have the thermostats in the beginning , and was running without , then I had cooling problems , because the water had no time too cool in the radiator , so I put restricting washers in place of the thermostats , and this improved it already a lot , so best is to put thermostats in .

IT is all a matter of opinion
I never put them in and have never had a heating problem ,only when it is a blockage in the system/rust ,plug rad etc.

and therein lies the debate... I left them out under the rationale that the water would flow through the block and the radiator quicker.

ultimately what happened was the carrier would take a lifetime to heat up, but once warm would be fine for a while, would get hot in the end though, mind during tear down I found my block was full of sediment, so that would perhaps explain that.

is there a definitive answer to this question, or is it yet another unsolved mystery of what is better...


chicken or egg ? :devil:

I am running a bespoke Aluminium radiator which may come into play as I doubt it will free flow the same as the old brass item.

I'd suggest you run them, along with a full set of shrouds.
(BTW.I have not yet owned a carrier that runs) The thermostat is there to make the engine run at an even temperature. The higher the operating temp. without boiling, the more efficient the engine is. It is however imperative that the engine never boils. Thermostats will considerably lengthen the working life of the engine by reducing wear. Wear occurs because components are not at the correct sizes for a proper working relationship (due to running too cold and being too loose a fit)
Henry Ford never designed his first V8s to run thermostats, but he did move over to them. I believe the first ones were installed in the top radiator necks.
There is a lot of conjecture about thermostats in flathead v8s.
Thermostats will not (can not) keep the temp down, only raise and regulate the temperature.
Everything has to be in good order. Many times thermostats get the blame and are thrown out because an engine is over heating. The reality being that the radiator is clogged with gunk, the timing is out, the block is full of sand and rust, the engine is running lean, there are cylinders that are lazy, etc. etc. etc.
I have seen carriers that consistently overheat and when you take a look, half the shrouds are missing.
They have a big fan, which is noisy and can easy fail (fall.....or fly to bits!) usually wrecking the radiator. This fan has to draw air through a lot of restrictions and stuff it out the back some where. If bits are missing the air just "washes" around the blades, and the machine overheats.

The conclusion I have drawn is that the flathead v8 should run the lower temperature option of thermostat (173*F) as opposed to the higher (182*F) type. (my opinion)
There are many who think that modern thermostats don't flow enough. I have trouble with this as the V8 is fundamentally two small 4 cylinder engines, where the coolant only ever mixes in the radiator. Each of these two 4 cylinder engines runs its own thermostat. Many bigger, higher output engines only run one stat.
If however you have a problem here, then high flow stats are available.
I cannot recall, the exact model, but I recall that a late model Nissan thermostat is the right od, temp range to fit in the hose on top of the heads.
What used to happen was that people cut the older ones down, but the Japanese have further reduced the od of stats to a more convienient size (for us)
Just a point of interest, one side of a flathead v8 runs hotter than the other side (known fact)
Try a heat gun on the head outlets? It is due to different compression ratios and other design differences(one side to the other, of the same block)
More points of interest:
Carriers all came with pressure caps. Riveted carrier caps are adjustable (about 3 lb??)
In Nigels book, the radiators were up graded because they split the seams.
Aust carriers came with an adjustable valve in the overflow tube,but later went to a standard comercial 4 lb cap??
One pound of pressure (held in system) raises the boiling point by 4 degrees F at sea level, so a 4lb cap raises the boiling point, by 16*, from 212*F to 228*F. This allows a higher operating temp, kept up there with a thermostat, giving greater efficiency from the engine.

Thanks for the info Lynn. Will give them a whirl and see what happens, I am running shrouds, have a clean block, running a modern ally radiator, and was going to run a water / water wetter mix.

Back in the days of the flattie, you had a choice of a 160 degree summer or a 180 degree winter thermostat. The winter one was to make your heater throw warm air.
On a carrier in this day and age, motor longevity shouldn't be an issue. The tracks will wear out in 1000 miles anyway.

Remember to test the thermostats
 

Hi Richard

As has been said over years, NOS, New, or Used always check thermostats before installing. Surprising how often they will be slow or open way late the first time you start an engine after changing thermosts. See http://www.mapleleafup.net/forums/sh...8&postcount=20 for I check them.

Sometimes it can also be air bubble under the thermostat which keeps the heat from reaching the body of the thermostat.

Really a bumber to watch a freshly done engine blowing boiling water out the radiator cap.

Cheers Phil

I found that years back the offshore produced thermostats were very late to open. On my jeeps, if I used a Canadian tire aftermarket thermostat, it would not open until almost 240, then drop down to the 180 mark. You might get away with that on a modern vehicle, but when you only have 7 pounds of pressure, you are hitting the boiling point at 240. A carrier is even less.

I had the same problems everyone is describing when I first ran my carrier. Even if idling, it would very quickly reach the overheat level. I had the rad cleaned, and also ran quarts of CLR into the block to try and remove some of the scaling. There are better products to remove the scaling, but you cannot use them with the water pumps in place as the harsher chemicals will destroy the pumps and possibly the head gaskets.

End of the day though, it all came down to having a fan as close to the radiator as possible, and having the shrouds in place. Because I am running an 8BA engine, I am not using the carrier generator. I managed to get a fan extension off a different Ford car or truck that worked out. It required a total manufacture of the shrouds though since the fan is in a different height than the carrier fan would be. I used the original shrouds as a pattern to make the replacement shrouds, and they worked perfectly and look the part.

I did try running without thermostats, and it did not make one shred of difference to the overheating. In the end, I think it really came down to the shrouds, and I now run 160° thermostats.

My rad cap is missing the guts to make it pressurize, so I am running without any pressure. Also, due to the climate here, I am running 60/40 antifreeze mix. Running stronger antifreeze mixes can also cause overheating, but I suspect that for most of the MLU guys on this thread, over-strength antifreeze is not an issue.

Rob, there is a guy stateside that makes a valve for a model a v8. (on Fordbarn forum) It connects to the overflow pipe and i think is adjustable. Or you could advertise to the Australian carrier guys on this forum for one of their valves, also adjustable.

Thanks Phil, I have modern 160deg stats which I spun down, I did check them in the pan and both seemed to open at 160deg, reckon I will cycle them a few times though to be safe as you say !

What Lynn said, and

if you are concerned about an airlock, drill a 1/16 or 1/8 " hole through the cap in a convenient position.

This will also allow a tiny bit of water to move about in the riser on the head.


f

I think I am going to experiment with installing a cut down, low pressure, radiator cap off something else and installing it (or the guts from it) into the existing carrier cap. But since my carrier runs fine with no pressure, the project is not a high priority.

Charlie, if you look close, most thermostats have an air bleed, if not a hole, then a small notch. You do need to look close.
Rob, Thats a good thought on the pressure cap. With the advent of the small Japanese caps it should not be too hard. I hadn't thought of that.

Edit: Having now had a look, the standard sized cap is the likely donor.

Reallly, it comes down to creating a sealed seat that lifts off at a certain pressure. An adjusting screw built into it would enable it to be fine tuned. Of course, you also need a check valve of some design to prevent a vacuum from forming as it all cools down.

Not fitted and doesn't over heat at all. The T16 , and I guess all Carriers are not subject to running cold due to the enclosed nature of the engine and low natural air flow. I would rather have an engine take its time to warm up,, rather than over heat due to a 70 year old thermostat failing to open. No brainer.

Rob, All of that is of course incorparated in a modern cap. It might just require de riveting the cap part of an ordinary cap, and making a packer and gaskets to fill out the gap to the required spacing and setting up a jig with a pressure tester to check and adjust it.
Andrew, use a modern thermostat. Millions and millions of them are working perfectly everyday and if I recall correctly, Waxstats fail in the open position. The older style alchohol type bellow stats fail in the closed position. (these can cook an engine) As I said in a previous post; Thermostats are there for a reason. They often get the blame for cooling system problems, which are usually the result of other areas of neglect.

Lynn That is your opinion
I have messed with these flattys for 60 years
and now my opinion is leave them out!
use to run a flat head in a ski boat ,pulling 6 skiers and the water out of the lake was pumped straight through and only run at 120 f and lasted over 20 years
so tell me were the temperature should be 120 or 180 or 200 and I have never heard an engine complain about being to cool just too HOT
:devil:

Yes Stew, it is my opinion, and yes it is the opinion of a person who has yet to finish putting together his first flathead v8.
So you have much more experience than I. Probably because I live in a country where likely the numbers of v8s equal (my wild guess) 1 in 200 engines.(but climbing, by way of Toyotas)

What I do know is that engine specifications are derived from experience established by the various motor manufacturers, Ford included.
These specifications are recommendations for clearances in engines that are going to run within a given heat range. Any thing else is going to give a shorter and less reliable life.
You may not have been concerned about that and running your boat engine at 120 degrees was o.k. by you. I would suggest your piston to bore clearance was excessive and that if you were after the best performance out of it, it should have been running at about the 200degrees F.

My recommendations are to help those who are not necessarily from a mechanical background, to try and give them the best possible all round result.
Many of us have been lucky doing things that don't meet specs. Luck often gets us through, but not always. I guess i'm a bit of a perfectionist.

Anyhow Stew, we both live in different countries and no doubt we see some things differently. Our varying views help others to come to their own conclusions about how they proceed with their projects, you at one end of the spectrum and me at the other. It makes for an enriched forum.
I look forward to maybe meeting you one day. :salute:

Started my engine up today, put the thermostats in and she heated up to 160 both banks. Going to hold off putting the water wetter in for now in case I need to dump the water and pull the stats.

The query of thermostats has been around forever ! Two sides of the fence both with valid arguments.

I used to run a shim in my rally x engine (A series) the thing used to be boiling at the end of the heat (race)

I respect all views passed on this thread, and it's good to see the query being thrashed out :D

Ok guys and gal's I ran my carrier with 160 stats in and one bottle of water wetter mixed with water only (no glycol) she shows an indicated temp of 170 on the gauge where she stays. When worked hard she creeps up to 200, but then drops back to 170 when the load is lightened again.

So she works fine with them in... Will try with them out at some point.

She warms up within about two or three minutes at idle, from a cold start.

Cheers

Richie