List of Names SD&G-Highlanders in Photos - 1940-1945
 

Searching for Canadian soldiers by NAME in photos, taken during WWII is quite a job and I still believe this is what they all deserve, because they will always be our Liberators. I started the search at the end of 2004 and in May a mayor breakthrough took place. A Veteran of the NNSH – Mr. J. Duhaime – recognized one soldier – Veteran J. Jordan - among 155 Stormont, Dundas & Glengarry Highlanders. The photo was made in May/June 1945 in front of the Ruysdaelschool in Hilversum, the Netherlands. Mr. Jordan recognized 37 Glens by name and his daughter sent me the list. It was a great start and ofcourse I appreciate the coorperation highly, because without them this would not be possible.

Now, almost two years later and with the support of Veterans and their Sons & Daughters and other Family-members, 203 Stormont, Dundas & Glengarry Highlanders are found by Surname and many even with Initials.
It would be wonderful if more Canadians - Sons, Daughters and Family-members – would be interested in what their father or maybe uncle did in WW2 in Europe. The Glens fought their way up from Normandy to Emden and Leer in Germany and in fact they made it possible to live since then in Freedom!
That's why I'm going on, searching for names of these soldiers: to give each individual SD&G-Highlander, and the photo itself, an Identity, by finding his Surname and Initials. Above that also – if possible - the Location where the photo was made and the name of the photographer.
All the information is not for myself, but for those who are related to the Veterans, Archives and Musea (Canadian War Museum) in Canada & the Netherlands (NIOD & NIMH).

If you recognize one of these names, or even more, please let me know and I will send you the photo where the SD&G-Highlander(s) is / are in the picture.
If you have photos - made in the Netherlands – with soldiers of the SD&G-Highlanders, it would be great to see them and to find out where these were made.

Names starting with Mac . . . or Mac . . . see under “M”.
Problem-names in the list are: Bourque and Burke – Hepburn, maybe Bradburn or . . . – Ingoe, maybe Inglis, Ingram or . . . – Koffke, maybe Zoschke or . . . !

When there’s a Surname without Initials: the surname is checked in THE BOOK: “Up the Glens” written by W. Boss & W.J. Patterson. If a surname is listed more then one time, the description is (Example): Brown, listed 6x: A.J., G.W., H.E., J.F., J.N. and W.A.

You can get in touch with me by e-mail: wiggervdhorst27@planet.nl
Or by mail: Wigger K. F. van der Horst, de Deel 10, 7335 MG Apeldoorn, the Netherlands

203 SD&G-Highlanders from A – Z
Abrams V.S. Lt Cpl - Alberico E.D. – Allen, Listed 3x: J.L., J.W. and R.S. - Amyotte E.J.J. - Andre J.V. (Jack) Lt - Andrusek J – Angiers, Listed 2: RA, HJ - Annable G.N. L.Sgt. - Argue J.H. - Armstrong AJ - Arnold H.T. (Herb)

Bates, Sgt. listed 4x: A.J.E., C., S. and W. - Bautovich S.S. - Beaupre O.L. - Beaven W.J. – Bedard, listed 2x: C.R.T. and J.A. - Beswick A.H. - Blakely D.T. (Donald) - Bloom WJ (William) - Bloomfield J. Cpl - Boileau A.G. – Bourque W.J. At the back photo is written: “Burke” Listed 3x: C.M., F.E. and LE - Bousfield G.E.W. Sgt. - Bowen G.M. (George) Sgt – Boyd, Sgt. listed 2x: L. and R.E.G. – Bradley, Sgt. Listed 3x: F., G. and J.E. - Braund A.M. - Bridson F.R. - Brown, listed 6x: A.J., G.W., H.E., J.F., J.N. and W.A. - Brum G.W. - Buchan J.B. – Buchanan Sgt. Listed 3x: J.A., K.M. and M. - Buck K.A. - Budd K.H. Sgt – Burke C.M. Sgt. - Burley, Listed 3x: C.D., E. and E.F.C.

Caley J. Sgt. - Cameron C.F. Sgt. - Carlson G.H.W. – Carter, Listed 5x: C., J., J.R., R.C., and T.H. – Cassidy, Listed 4x: J.A., J.E., J.H. and M.C. - Chouinard E. - Clapper F.G. – Clout H.C. Sgt. - Cole L.H. Sgt. - Coleman C.B. Cpl – Conklin D.S. Sgt. - Cox W.J. (Walter John) - Cripps E.C. – Crawford, listed 4x: C., D.A., L. and W.J.

Davidson RQMS - Listed 4x: A.R., H.B., L. and R.J.F. - Davis G.E. Sgt - Delorme A.J. - Denny D.E. Sgt. – Deshane C.W. Sgt. - DeSylva, Sgt. (NOT listed. Listed is DeSylvia A.A. - Donihee J.P. (Joe) Capt - Doucette L. (‘Frenchie’) Cpl – Doughty, Listed 2x: H.E., and M.A. - Dunford F.J. (Frank) Sgt - Dunk C.R. (Charles) CQMS - Duplante R. (Rosaire) - Dure J.A. (Johnnie) Maj IC D-Coy.

Eligh G.L. – Elliott, Listed 5x: E.H., G.J., H., J.D.E. and R.G. - Elliston H.G. Cpl. -

Fairs R. (Robert) - Ferguson C.F. – Flood C.C. Sgt. - Ford, Listed 2x: H.G. and R. - Forman J.A. (Jake) Maj. B-Coy - Foster (CFN) Listed 8x: F.F., G.A., H.J., H.W., L.C., R.W., S.E.W.W., and T. - Fox B.G. (Bennie) Maj. A-Coy - Fraser A.B.

Gale J.F. - Galley L.C. Sgt. - Gault RB (Ralph) Capt. - Gavin A.T. (Ted) Lt - Gemmell N.M. (Neil) Lt.Col – Gibson, Listed 2x: N. and O.F. - Gilchrist I.N. L.Cpl - Gingrich T.O. Sgt. RCEME - Green W.O. (William) – Griffith-Cochrane R.C. - Grondin W.M. - Groshaw H.L. (Was Grosham with M, is NOT listed)

Hall, Listed 4x: F.L., H.E., N.E. and W.C. - Hanlon J.W. Cpl - Hardy J.B. Cpl - Harwood V.H.G. Sgt. - Hayward L.C. (CSM) – Hepburn, Sgt. (Is NOT listed. Listed is: Bradburn W.) - Hewitt, Listed 3x: A.M., R.F.B. and R.G. - Hood, Listed 2x: H.J. and J.H. – Howard, Sgt. Listed 2x: F. and J.S - Hubbard T.J. - Hummel R. (Ralph) Sgt. - Hurst H.W.

Ingoe, (is NOT listed. Listed are Inglis J.W. and Ingram G.J. or is “Ingoe” a nickname?)

Jamieson M.B. (Malcolm) Sgt.Maj. - Jones C. - Jones K.J. - Jones, Listed 10x: B.E., D.L., E.J., E.O., H.W., J.E., K.R., O.J. and S.G.L. (RCEME) - Jordan J.W. (John) Cpl.

Kaye (is NOT listed. Listed is Kay A.C.) Sgt. - Keeler B. (Bill) Capt. - Kerr, Listed 6x: A.C., D.J., F., F.W., J.I.R. and W.A.L – Knight, Sgt. Listed 2x: H.H. and W.J. - Koffke (Koffke is NOT listed. Name is not right. Search for “sounds like”. . . Noffke V. is KIA. Maybe Zoschke A.H. ?) - Kowa W.*

Lalonde C.J. (Clifford) Dispatch Rider - Lander F.W. Maj. – Lapell B.B. Sgt. - Lapierre, Listed 3: C.D., D. and L.J. - Lapierre N. - Laughren J.M. (Jimmy) - Lauzon (Was Lauson with S, is not listed) Listed are: Lauzon 2x: E. and L.A. or Lawson, also 2x: A. and J.H. – Lemieux, Sgt. Listed 2x: E. And M.D. - Leroux, Sgt. listed 2x: A.E. (RCASC) and R.A.J. - Leslie S.J. (Stan) Lt. - Lockhart F.A. (Fred) Sgt or Reg.Sgt.

MacDonald T (Ted) Lt. Listed 2: T.J. and T.L. - Mallon D.P. - Mars E.J. – Martin, Sgt. Listed 10x: A.A., A.J., E.J., F.H., G.R., H.F., J., K.N., J.S. and R.W. - Matheson W.E. Sgt. - McCourt G.B. (Garry) Capt. - McDonald J.A. (John Agnus) – McGrath, Sgt. Listed 3x: G.E., R. and W.W. – McLennan R. Sgt. - Menenga R.J.W. Sgt. - Menzies L.S. (Len) Sgt. - Merpaw W.G.A. - Merrick R.F. - Miller R.E. Cpl. (In June 1945 Lieutenant12th Platoon) – Miller, Sgt. Listed 7x: D.F., E.M., G.B., T.J., W.F., W.A.B. and W.S. - Mitchell E.A. - Morrison D.H. -– Moss J. Sgt. - Murphy (Called “the wild man from Cape Breton) Listed 8x: D.J., J., J.R., L., L.V.G., P.J., T.R. and W.E. (If Murphy came from Cape Breton the F-numbers are the only ones that are qualified: DJ F58120 and L, F10381)

Newman G.E. L.Sgt – Newton, Sgt. listed 2x: J.W. and T.S. - Nicholson (Behind 083) Listed 3x: A., and R.A.

Owen, RSM

Packenham (Not Listed) Listed is: Pakenham W.G. - Patterson, Listed 5x: A.F., L.I., L.W., R. and S.C. - Paudash G.R. (George) - Peckenham W. (Not Listed) Listed is: Pakenham W.G. - Peel, Sgt. Listed 2x: A. and J.R. – Peer J.W. Sgt. - Pekeskle A.T. - Phillips, Listed 7x: D., G., G.W., M.H., R.J., V.B. and W.A.. - Picken M.A. – Plumadore B. - Poitras A. Cpl. - Post C.A. (Charlie) Sgt. - Poupore J.R. (James) Sgt. - Pringle C.A. (Clyde Alexander) – Pringle II, Listed 4x: A., C.A., J.R. and O.F. (RCEME) - Proctor R.J. Sgt. -Purser A.E. Cpl.

Quibell L.P. (Lawrence)

Ramsdon Sgt. (NOT listed. Listed is Ramsdon J.F.) - Raymond, Listed 5x: C.L., H.W., J.L., J.W. and T.L., - Renière R.E. - Richards, Cpl. Listed 3x: B., G. and G.D. – Robicheau N.J. - Rogge R. – Rolson M.J. Sgt. - Roy, Sgt. Listed 2x: A.W.C. and E.

Sage W.K. - Scott C.J. - Scott D.A. (Don) Capt. Support-Coy. - Seguin, Listed 2x: F.A. and O. - Sisson, Listed 2x: G.M.H. amd R.W. – Smith R.M. Capt. - Smith, listed 25x - Spalla J.M. - Spry, W.E. Cpl. - Stanley, T.W. (Tom) Lt. – Sternberg, Sgt. (NOT listed. Listed is Stienberg H.J.) - Stevens, Initials ? Capt. - Stevens J.W. - Stevenson E.C. - Stothard J.G. (Jim) Maj. 2nd. IC – St.Pierre, E.C. (Erskine) - Sullivan J.C. (Joe) Cpl.

Taillon G.L.P. (Gordon) – Taylor, Sgt. (CSM) listed 8x: A.B., D.G.A., E.T., G.S., J.J., L.A., N. and W.R. - Tennian T.J. - Therrien J.Z.M.G. (CFN / RCEME) - Thomson B.M. (Mac) Maj. C-Coy – Towes H.W.

VandeLoo J.P. Sgt. - VandeLoo P.A. Sgt. – Volkenburg, W.H.van Sgt. -

Wade M.G. - Wallace W.A. (William) Sgt - Watson, Listed 6x: A.S., B.W., H.F., W.E., W.H.M. and W.R. – Webdale R.F. P.Maj. - Webster H.A. - Wells, A.R.* Identified because he was wounded* - Whitcombe H.A. - White, Listed 8x: A, C.C., G.E., H.W., I.R.*, J.F. and SE - Willis H (Harry) Capt. HQ-Coy - Wilson F.J. (Fred) Lt. - Wilson H. Listed 2x with an H as initial – Woodcock, Sgt. Listed 3x: G.W., L.N.S. and S.E. - Woods, Sgt. (There’s listed one Woods: J.Y. Capt. June 1945-May 1946) As Wood Sgt. (Elspeet) - without an S, listed 11x: D.J., F.B., G.J., H., H.J., H.R., J.H., K.B., M.V., R.A. and W.M.

Zurbrigg R.A.

Congratulations on your great work. You may wish to share your results with the SD&G museum. They can be reached at;
Stormont, Dundas and Glengarry Highlanders Regimental Museum
505 4th Street East, Cornwall, ON K6H 2S7
Telephone: 1-613-936-9124
Fax: 1-613-993-8147
Other times by appointment, (613)932-9853

Note:
All information will be written on a (probably 2 CD's): All the photos (restaured) as jpg-files. Text (doc-)files, with list of names and stories. Also Collection-pages, size A4, with photos & text of each Canadian or Dutch who send me information about the Glens: pictures & text.

The SD&GH Regimental Museum was already on THE List. hereby (and I hope, it's the same Museum ?!):

Canadian War Museum, Ottawa. Ontario, Canada:
Cornwall Armoury Museum SD&G, Cornwall, Ontario, Canada;
Dudok-centrum, Hilversum, The Netherlands;
Gemeente-archief Hilversum, Hilversum, The Netherlands;
Gemeente-archief Nunspeet, Nunspeet, The Netherlands; Gemeente-archief Utrecht, Utrecht, The Netherlands;
Gemeente-archief Sluis, Sluis, The Netherlands;
Nederlands Instituut voor Militaire Historie - NIMH, The Hague, The Netherlands;
Nederlands Instituut voor OorlogsDocumentatie - NIOD, Amsterdam, The Netherlands.

Not mentioned:
21 Canadian Supporters - Veterans and Sons & Daughters and other Family-Members and
3 Dutch Supporters.

Re: List of Names SD&G-Highlanders in Photos - 1940-1945
 

The last name posted above: Arnold H.T. (Herb), is my mother's brother. Herb is still alive and kicking, I last saw him two weeks ago in Hamilton, Ontario. My mother has some wartime photos of Herb, I'll see if I can borrow them and post them here.

Cheers

Thank you, Mr. Tonner. That would be wonderful !

PM sent about the SDG. A friends father and possibly an uncle in that pic. Brian

Re: Re: List of Names SD&G-Highlanders in Photos - 1940-1945
 

Wigger;

Two wartime photos of my Uncle Herb (Arnold, H.T.):

1. - undated:

http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e3...erbundated.jpg

2. - 30 October 1944:

http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e3...erb30Oct44.jpg

Cheers

Thank you very much, Mr. Tonner! And such wonderful and clear pictures after 62 years!

Re: Wartime SD&G Highlanders
 

Wigger;

My uncle, Herb Arnold (Arnold, H.T.) passed away peacefully yesterday 18 January 2008 in Hamilton, Ontario.

:remember

Lest We Forget

Re: Re: Wartime SD&G Highlanders
 

I'm sorry to hear that, Mark. May he rest in peace.

:salute: :remember

Re: Re: Wartime SD&G Highlanders
 

Peacefully is the key word ,Mark..
May he rest in peace..
Alex and family..
:support :remember :salute:

Wigger, Geoff and Alex ...

Gentlemen;

Thank you for your kind words ... their ranks get ever so thinner ...

:remember

Cheers

Re: Re: Wartime SD&G Highlanders
 

Mark,

I am sorry to hear your uncle has passed away. I hope he is remembered for who he was and what he did by his family.

:salute:

Hanno

This is my Great Uncle Fred who passed away a year and a half ago. He was with the Hasty Pees when they landed and fought in Italy and was transfered to the SDG's in time for D-Day.

Yes, not your Father, but Uncle Fred !
 

Well, I was probably dreaming . . .
I made a terrible mistake by use the wrong person.
I'm sorry that I made it and did read your text not in the right way.
Kind Regards, Wigger

Info about pictures
 

Hello Ian,
Attachment-(without number) is could be made in Elspeet. about 60 km E. of Hilversum.
Attachment-1 Could be made in Hilversum in the S.-area. When we go to Hilversum I will check the houses in that area.
Attachment=2 is your uncle with a 17 Pounder AT-gun on the inner yard of School no.4 and 6. Is it possible that your uncle was part of the AT-gun plt. of Capt. Gault ? I will check the background (houses) when we are in Hilversum.
Attachment-3: I have some other lists, some with less locations. It gives Info in an other way, but will give a better view where the Glens were in detail.
Attachment-4: the pict is made in Hilversum at the Maple Leaf Stadium. Several picts were made: left to right, front and right to left. I have one where you can identify most faces of the Glens, including a list with names of most officers in front.
Is it possible to send me your pictures size 1/1 at 300dpi or better 2/1 at 300dpi ?
Kind Regards, Wigger

A small correction. The gun is a 6 Pounder A/T gun and not a 17 Pounder

I'll see if I can do that this weekend.

6 Pounder A/T gun.
 

Thank you for your support ! The pict of Capt. Gault was made at the same location and the info had was that it was a 17 Pounder . . . For sure I recognize the same houses in the background which are located at the Gabriël Metsulaan. I received last picture recently. I want to restore the Ian Johns Picts as I did with the other two. Hope to hear from him.
Wigger

Identification of your uncle
 

Hello Ian,
It was this morning identification-time. I compared your photos of your uncle with the 155 Glens picture of myself and there is no mistake about it: SD&G-Highlander #114 is your Uncle. On the list of this pictrure #114 is NOT yet identified and has no name. Can you tell me what his name is?
Also I checked an other picture which was made at the same location. Because Capt. R.B. Gault is in this picture, I think that most of the 48 Glens were part of A/T Platoon. I will made a list of the 48 Glens of which are some not yet identified, and post it (including the picture) this afternoon on the MLU-Forum.
Kind Regards, Wigger.

48 SD&G-Highlanders in Hilversum
 

Hello Ian . . . about the picture: 48 Stormont, Dundas and Glengarry Highlanders in Hilversum in front of the corridor between School no.14 and 16 location Ruysdaellaan. The legal owner is Mr. R. Poitras - ON - Canada. The names as far I could identify the Glens with the 155 SD&G-Highlander's picture:

1 Sgt GN Annable C53854 - 2 Sgt DE Denny C54288 - 3 Sgt WA Wallace CSM C53031 - 4 Capt RB Gault - 5 Lt AT Gavin - 6 Sgt JR Poupore C79125 - 7 Sgt.Maj MB Jamieson C79010 - 8 Sgt GE Newman C101602 - 9 Pte JF Gale A109056 - 10 Sgt WE Matheson C124384 - 11 Not identified - 12 Pte HT Arnold B148721 - 13 Sgt LH Cole B115024 - 14 Not identified - 15 Pte AJ Armstrong C53542 - 16 Not identified – 17 Cpl WJ Beaven D143897 - 18 Brown > Same surname 7x (Initials and Reg.no) : AJ C79294 / GD C58177 / GW C124255 / HE C54322 / JF C54219 / JN B134811 and WA B 074573 OR with Surname : Wade MG C1648 - 19 Cpl Doucette L F55106 - 20 Rank? WGA Merpaw C102763 - 21 Rank? GL Eligh C53243 - 22 Rank? WC Stevens C123804 - 23 Not identified - 24 Not identified - 25 Rank? J Andrusek C123361 - 26 Not identified - 27 Sgt CJ Lalonde C31983 - 28 Rank? FG Clapper C121281 - 29 Cpl WJ Jordan B135656 - 30 Rank? WJ Cox C53200 - 31 Cpl A Poitras C31353 - 32 Not identified - 33 Rank? DT Blakely C79060 - 34 Pte GLP Taillon C053234 - 35 Cpl HG Elliston C65203 - 36 Not identified - 37 Pte R Duplante C57587 - 38 Not identified - 39 Pte W Kowa D138416 - 40 Not identified - 41 Not identified - 42 Pte NLapierre C79071 - 43 Rank? KA Buck C52975 - 44 Hewitt > Same surname 4x : Initials and Reg.no: AM C612229 / RFB C63380 / RG C75752 / RG C75752 - 45 Rank? JH Argue H92427 - 46 Rank? WO Green C48690 - 47 Rank? FR Bridson C80187 - 48 Surname WADE MG C1648 or BROWN > Brown is listed 7x >see #18.

Your uncle is #23 in the picture. If you want a large picture (16 Inches) by email :
wiggervdhorst27@planet.nl

Wigger

Hello Wigger,

Thanks for your extensive research!

As per your request I have uploaded your pictures to military photo hosting site:

http://www.surfacezero.com/g503/data...sum1945_30.jpg http://www.surfacezero.com/g503/data...ge_40_No_s.jpg

I hope this is of help, even though they are still not as large as the originals.

Best regards,
Hanno

Photo 155 Glens in Hilversum
 

Hello Hanno,
Thanks for your effort !
If there is any need for a much larger picture, they always can send me an email and I will send them a large 16 Inch picture which is clear enough in detail.

There are posted - separate - some new pictures of the SD&G-Highlanders, including the lists with names. It is more easy to keep replies to one instead of much more pichures, which can make it more complicated.
This perticular thread was made during April 2007. The list above is a collection of some large pictures I had. Over the years a lot has changed: more names with more detailed information. The separate threats with two pictures - a numbered and 'clean' one - makes it much more easy to handle, and in case a large picture is needed: my email is always there.
Kind Regards, Wigger

Vincent Henry George Harwood Photo
 

Attached you will find a picture of V.H.G.Harwood, a relative of mine. His nickname was "Dutch".

My father, Edmund George Harwood also served with the SD&G. He was transferred 12 days after D Day, from the Hastings and Prince Edward Regiment company that was in reserve in England to the SD&G, after complaining that he had gone overseas to fight and a call for replacements came from the SD&G. He was wounded in Germany.
Wally Harwood

SD&G-Highlander Sgt. VHG Harwood "Dutch"
 

[QUOTE=WallyH;227204]Attached you will find a picture of V.H.G.Harwood, a relative of mine. His nickname was "Dutch".

Hello, thanks for your message. I wat to post a picture made of 60 Glens in Hilversum, which was sent to me by SD&G-Highlander Veteran J. Sullivan. There's also a list with names, including SD&G-Highlander Sgt VHG Harwood C53163. Probably there are more pictures of him . . .
The list wit names: 60 SD&G-Highlanders HQ-Coy - June 3rd. 1945 - Courtesy: Veteran J.S. Sullivan.
When the Stormont, Dundas & Glengarry Highlanders were recruited in 1940, Headquarters Company came from Peterborough. The photo of the 60 SD&G-Highlanders is HQ-coy of the same battalion as it appeared at Hilversum, the Netherlands, on June 3rd. 1945.
1 Burley / 2 Bedard / 3 Amyotte EJJ / 4 Spalla JH / 5 Jones CA / 7 Gilchrist IN / 8 Lapierre N / 9 Mallon DP / 10 Burke / 11 Angiers / 12 Unknown / 13 Murphy / 14 Sage WK / 15 Buchan JB / 16 Woods / 17 Berwick / 18 Foster / 19 Chouinard E / 20 Therrien JZMG / 21 Grosham / 22 Delorme AG / 23 Lauson / 24 Plumadore B / 25 Roy EJT / 26 Gibson / 27 Hanlon JW / 28 Bloomfield J / 29 Sullivan JC / 30 Packenham / 31 Rogge R / 32 Boileau AG / 33 Mose JF / 34 Dougthy / 35 Whitcombe HA / 36 Kerr / 37 Stevens JW / 38 Abrams VS / 39 Merrick RF / 40 Dunk CR / 41 Hardy JB / 42 Carlson GHW / 43 Hall / 44 Webster HA / 45 Harwood VHG / 46 Richards / 47 MacDonald / 48 Purser AE / 49 Allen / 50 Mitchell EA / 51 Braund AM / 52 Wilson H / 53 Hayward LC / 54 Gingrich TO / 55 Spry WE / 56 Davidson HB / 57 Budd KH / 58 Hood HJ / 59 Peel JR / 60 Wells AR.

You can also write me by e-mail: wiggervdhorst27@planet.nl or wiggervdhorst@gmail.com

Edmund George Harwood
 

I checked the list with all SD&G-Highlanders, but did not found Edmund George Harwood in it. The only one who I found was Sgt. Vincent Henry George Harwood . . .

C54273 Cpl. Leonard Joseph COYNE.
 

still looking for any photo or info regarding C54273 Cpl. Leonard Joseph COYNE. MID ......Have not been able to locate much about this soldier

Thank you for your effort!
 

My Father was Bill Wood (Wood, W. M.)
As far as I know, he was a Bren Gunner and reached the rank of Sgt.

Thanks again.