MLU FORUM - Is it a mercury or not ? what is it ?

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Is it a mercury or not ? what is it ?

lads just shopping for gaskets, can anyone advise me exactly what unit i have in my carrier..... i know it is a carrier engine rather than a pilot or truck engine as the Oil cooler take offs are in the correct place ... but what the heck is it ?

it has the 24 stud heads, i am guessing (wildly here mind) that my unit is the Ford 221 CI lump... it looks to have a holley carb but have not inspected it closely....

anyone able to assist ? I was quoted £59.00 each + Vat for head gaskets alone at Belcher.... surely i can get them cheaper than this ?

I will need a full gasket set, and a 4 ring full ringset, possibly a set of big ends and mains (i need to inspect the crank which is already on +10thou mains and big ends)

here are the pics guys... if i can ID the engine i can trace down the gaskets and perhaps get them on ebay and sent to the UK for less than i have been quoted to date.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...rrier_005a.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...carrier001.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...carrier002.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...carrier003.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...carrier004.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...carrier075.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...carrier007.jpg

data plate states:-

Torgis Engineering Co.
Reconditioned motor specifications
date 1534 Job no 0004-106 undersize 030
main size 010 throw size 010
15/03/45

..a plain old ford 221 from here, but I am squinting a bit.

Hi Rich, I not sure what gasket set you will need, but be careful what you buy off Belcher Engineering, They sold me a NOS fuel pump that was as much good as a wheel on a walking stick and a set of ignition leads that came apart in your hand, I would get advice from someone in Canada and buy what you need from the US or Canada, thats what I will do when I rebuild my engine.

Whats happening with the wheel re-rubbering ?.

Kev.

Kevin i have a spare wheel buddy so if you are still up for what we discussed then i will get the ball rolling, i have located another firm here in newcastle so was waiting on the quotes coming back from them (before i post this stuff to Gloucester which will be expensive for me bearing in mind i dont get the wheel back....)

As for Belcher i was quoted £400 for a set of big ends !!!!! and the belts etc they advised (and were bloody outragous on price) were wrong.... i spoke to Mac Vanpelt via email and he said to check as the part numbers quoted were wrong for a 24 stud engine...

i asked about the big ends etc and was told they are super rare and "special" Mac Vanpelt said they were two a penny ! the price i mentioned on my first post was for one...yes one head gasket !

if i had not built many a high performance engine i might have been suckered in luckily i am a tight ass so laughed and hung up on the chap..... i had specialist main shells made for my rally x car shipped in from Europe they were one offs and they didnt even cost what i was quoted !

Charlie are there any tell tale signs i can look for on the lump ? i hear 8BA 9BA etc etc bandied about various forums etc i take it these are the engine models ? I cant see anything obvious on my engine ?

ok Many thanks to Don Barrie from Thunder Bay Ontario ! emailed him before and he says the main difference between the Ford lump and the Merc is the bore on a ford unit is 3" 1/16th and the Merc is 3" 3/16 So will have to measure mine......

anyone dealt with "Patricks" in Casa Grande Arizona ?

Talked to a freind of Mine about these Motors last night .He said this is a french company that copied the Merc Flathead and made it Better.
Jeff Davis

Mac's Antique Auto parts, They have everything you need for your Flathead.

:smoker:Regards Aidan

i have been told that Belcher here in the Uk buys his kit from Mac... then marks up the price by a factor of twelve :D

some information has come through from Vanpelts.

Quote:

In 1938 Ford made new changes to the flathead V8, the most obvious change being the use of 24 studs per head instead of 21 as previously used. The engine underwent various other changes as years passed.
In 1939 when the Mercury car line was introduced, the engine's cylinder bore was opened up for a larger displacement in the Mercury car. Changes to the distributor occurred in 1942 and again in 1946.

The cooling fan was driven by its own v-belt beginning with 1942 models. The engine continued to be cast with the upper bell housing integral with the cylinder block assembly. In the post-war production both Ford and Mercury versions had the larger bore (3-3/16").

Water outlets were in the top center of each cylinder head for all 1938 to 48 motors. Water pumps were mounted in the lower front corners of all blocks from this era, and doubled as the front motor mounting pad.
Flathead Specifications
221 & 239 Cubic Inch

Middle Years V8: 1938 to 1948

1946-48 (59A style) pictured above
In 1938 Ford made new changes to the flathead V8, the most obvious change being the use of 24 studs per head instead of 21 as previously used. The engine underwent various other changes as years passed.
In 1939 when the Mercury car line was introduced, the engine's cylinder bore was opened up for a larger displacement in the Mercury car. Changes to the distributor occurred in 1942 and again in 1946.

The cooling fan was driven by its own v-belt beginning with 1942 models. The engine continued to be cast with the upper bell housing integral with the cylinder block assembly. In the post-war production both Ford and Mercury versions had the larger bore (3-3/16").

Water outlets were in the top center of each cylinder head for all 1938 to 48 motors. Water pumps were mounted in the lower front corners of all blocks from this era, and doubled as the front motor mounting pad.

Year_______Displacement(CI)______Bore & Stroke(Inches)_MaxBHP____CR________Head Studs_______notes
1938 Ford...............221.........................3.0 625 x 3.750................85..............6.20:1....... ..........24..................1,4
1939 Ford...............221.........................3.0 625 x 3.750................85..............6.20:1....... ..........24..................1,4
1939 Mercury..........239.........................3.187 5 x 3.750................95..............6.30:1....... ..........24..................1,4
1940 Ford...............221.........................3.0 625 x 3.750................85..............6.20:1....... ..........24..................1,4
1940 Mercury..........239.........................3.187 5 x 3.750................95..............6.30:1....... ..........24..................1,4
1941 Ford...............221.........................3.0 625 x 3.750................90..............6.20:1....... ..........24..................1,4
1941 Mercury..........239.........................3.187 5 x 3.750...............100..............6.60:1....... ..........24..................1,4
1942 Ford...............221.........................3.0 625 x 3.750................90..............6.20:1....... ..........24..................2,4,6
1942 Mercury..........239.........................3.187 5 x 3.750...............100..............6.60:1....... ..........24..................2,4,6
1946 Ford/Mercury...239.........................3.1875 x 3.750...............100..............6.75:1....... ..........24..................3,5,6
1947 Ford/Mercury...239.........................3.1875 x 3.750...............100..............6.75:1....... ..........24..................3,5,6
1948 Ford/Mercury...239.........................3.1875 x 3.750...............100..............6.75:1....... ..........24..................3,5,6

Notes:
1) Used the "Eggshell" or "Diver's Helmet" style pre-war distributor (1932 thru 1941)
2) Used the "Crab" or "Pancake" style distributor (1942 thru 1945 engines).
3) Used the postwar style (1946 thru 1948) round distributor (similar to the crab style) with two bundled wire harnesses off the cap.
4) Prewar "81A" and wartime "41A" style blocks.
5) Postwar "59A" style blocks. These had the "59" cast into the top of the bell housing. Note that some of the 59A style blocks were also sold as replacement engines for pre-war 221 cubic inch cars and had the 3.0625" bore.
6) Had the two fan belt system (beginning with 1942 models) to drive the accessories. One belt operated the water pumps and generator. The other belt operated the cooling fan assembly.

General Information
The integral cast-in bell housing continued all the way through 1948 (except for the Ford trucks, which received in 1948 the newer '49-53 style engine with separate bell housing). All engines during this period had front, block-mounted water pumps (with wide belt pulleys), and twenty-four stud heads with center-located water hose outlets. Original cylinder heads for 1938 to 1942 were generally marked with "81A" for Ford or Mercury engines thru 1941; "81T" for truck engines from 1938 to 1942; "41T" heads were sold for 85/90hp trucks built from 1938 to 1942; "99T" for 100hp Ford Truck and Mercury in 1939 to 1941; and "29A" for Mercury in 1942. Heads marked "59-A" or "59AB" were used on all 90/100 hp (Ford & Mercury) engines from 1946 through 1948. The 59AB heads were sometimes used on earlier blocks in replacement rebuilds. You can find the Ford part numbers (basic 6049 and 6050 number with prefixes and suffixes) in the face of the heads and sometimes on the side edge of the head next to the intake manifold.

Additional information
The postwar cylinder blocks were also marked "59" (or "59A" or "59L" or "59X" or "59Y" or "59Z") with raised letters cast into the top of the bell housing part of the block. The Canadian version had a "C59" cast into the same area. Another block assembly (the "41A" style) was used to replace the "81A" style cylinder blocks, which were all the 85/90hp engines with 3.0625" bore. The 1938 to 1940 blocks had four small "freeze plugs" (2 each side) in the oil pan mounting surface. The 1941 (except for a short carryover) and later blocks did not have the freeze plugs. These can be noted from outside an assembled engine by the slight "bumps" in the side of the block casting, right at the oil pan mounting surface. In mid 1938 Ford modified the engine for larger diameter main bearings. For complete crankshaft bearing specs CLICK HERE. The original engines from mid 1941 to final 1942 production (when WWII ended auto production) had a raised intake manifold deck surface. Prior to these engines, the entire manifold deck surface was machined flat, right out to the edge of the cylinder deck. The postwar engines seem to have returned to the practice of machining the intake deck all flat again. The foundry would also place what were probably "lot" or "production" numbers in the castings on all blocks. These were usually a small group of letters and numbers cast on the top of the bell housing....right next to the vertical surface of the back of the block. Unfortunately, any records of these numbers are long gone and they provide no clues as to the particulars of any engines.

Water jacket holes in the top of the cylinder area of the block will tell you what years the block may be:

1938 Blocks: Large triangular shaped holes between the center cylinder bores

1939-42 Blocks: Three openings between the center cylinder bores: top one is triangular;
center and bottom holes are trapazoidal (or keystone) shaped.

1945-48 Blocks: The three center openings: top one is triangular;
center and bottom holes are large round holes.

All 24 stud engines using cast iron heads were equipped with dome-top pistons (in either aluminum or steel). Engines built through 1939 had a pressed-on timing gear on the camshaft. Beginning in 1940 this gear was bolted on to the camshaft. All engines up through 1948 had "mushroom" style valve stem ends and split valve guides. Some engines (including 59A style) had removable hardened valve seat inserts. It's not uncommon for an early (pre 1946) engine to have the valve seats installed by an engine rebuilder at some point in its life.

As for original paint colors, the Ford and Mercury engines through 1940 were a dark green. Ford cars continued the color until 1942. Mercury engine had a dark blue color from 1941 thru 1948. Postwar Ford engines were dark blue thru 1948. Ford truck engines were generally the same as Ford cars during the years of this group.

Go to 1932-48 Tune-Up Specifications

Go to Engine Parts Drawings Page

Return to Engine Specifications Page

Return to Flathead V8 Homepage

Copyright 2010 - VANPELT PARTS & SERVICE - All rights reserved www.vanpeltsales.com

Belcher Engineering dont do themselves any favours, they are 30 minutes up the road from me but I wont me going there any time soon.

Let us know the costs involved for the wheel and any local quotes you might get.

Kev.

Will do buddy.

So reading the spec sheet above guys i think mine is a ford 221 CI 85 bhp 24 stud unit 1939 - 42 possibly an 81A

hopefully this info will help others too ;)

Your block should have a number on the flat area just infront of the lh head (you facing forward in the carrier) eg the 81A.

Richard - if you remove the mounting bracket for the fuel change over valve on you might find the engine number stamped above the clutch housing vent plate.
Regards, Terry.

Cheers Terry, I got your Pm about parts cheers for that.

Richie

I found the ser no

for one of my carrier engines stamped into the machined area on top of the block where the intake manifold sits.

If you have a true "carrier" engine the valve seats are hardened inserts - they were apparently planning on using a lot of alcohol if they had to.

I think your best bet for parts is MACs in Queenston NY. even the big "doublewide" big end bearings. On-line catalog and the Yankee Dollar is down a bit...

Cheers guys... on the gaskets front without trying too hard i can get a full set off ebay delivered from the US to my door for £90 so the £59 + Vat each for a single head gasket price tag i have to question where or what planet the quote came from... i cant get this Adam and the Ants song out of my head every time i read his quote !
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PonczpswC3s

Be sure that you really study both sides of the block and compare it to the head gaskets when you get them in. When doing my project, I had a couple of sets that were listed for the engine, along with a few other minor variations. What I found was they fit the studs perfectly but some passages were obstructed. They could have been modified to fit using a dremil tool with a small cutting disc but I was fortunate to pick up a pair of solid copper head gaskets that were an exact match prior to final assembly of my engine. Not sure if the copper gaskets are really any better but they were a high performance item from the early 50s and I figured they would be more understanding and forgiving of my heavy handed work methods. Having three sizes of hammers for auto repairs works well for most things but the engine seems to be more sensitive. :rolleyes

What you say about yourself, and what the pictures show, do not match.

Flathead Jacks is my favourite place for flattie parts. I see in the online catalogue they have full gasket sets for $82 US so you should get them for around 60 pounds or so delivered.

right i took some photo's of my engine in bits whilst down Lincoln way... the crank journals will need a re grind (it is the centre main that is the worst) so looks like i will be go for +20thou bearings....

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...62010095-1.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...62010097-1.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...62010096-1.jpg