MLU FORUM - Pips and Crowns are back for the Canadian Army

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Pips and Crowns are back for the Canadian Army

And more changes. From http://blogs.ottawacitizen.com/2013/...itional-forms/

Quote:

Government Intends To Restore Canadian Army Rank Insignia, Names and Badges To Their Traditional Forms
July 8, 2013. 1:30 pm • Section: Defence Watch

Posted by: David Pugliese

HALIFAX, NOVA SCOTIA–(Marketwired – July 8, 2013) – The Honourable Peter MacKay, Minister of National Defence, announced today the Government of Canada’s intent to restore Canadian Army rank insignia, names and badges to their traditional forms.

“Our Government is committed to honouring the traditions and history of the Canadian Army,” said Minister MacKay. “The restoration of these historical features will encourage the esprit de corps of our soldiers and reinforce a rich military tradition that will continue to develop as they serve their country. Wherever I travel in Canada, these changes continue to be cherished in the hearts of our veterans.”

The changes include the re-introduction of divisional nomenclature and patches for the current Land Force Areas; traditional rank insignia for officers; corps shoulder titles from the restoration of Royal titles to a number of Canadian Army corps in April 2013; and the Canadian Army’s secondary badge. Further, the Minister of National Defence announced the intention to restore the historical Army rank names for non-commissioned members.

“The restoration of these features is a significant step in the restoration of the Canadian Army’s traditions,” said Lieutenant-General Peter Devlin, Commander of the Canadian Army. “Symbols and traditions establish links to soldiers’ heritage, and are important. It is very significant that our non-commissioned members have the prospect of being able to bear the same ranks as their forbearers, and our officers will proudly wear the same insignia worn by Canadians who fought in the First and Second World Wars and Korea.”

These restorations are the next step in the phased approach that began in August 2011, when the historical name of the Canadian Army was restored. Stemming from this initial restoration, and in line with historical lineage, the Canadian Army’s secondary badge will be reinstated, and the Land Force Areas will be renamed under division names, with division patches introduced accordingly.

Additionally, following from the restoration of traditional titles to a number of Canadian Army corps, shoulder titles for members of these corps will be restored. The intent is also to restore historical rank names for non-commissioned members, the traditional and internationally recognized convention of army insignia of stars and crowns for officers, and gorget patches for colonels and general officers.

(below from the DND/CF backgrounder):

When the Government of Canada announced that it was reinstating the historical name of the Canadian Army in August 2011, it restored an important part of the Canadian Army’s heritage. The restoration of traditions related to the historical identity of the Canadian Army appropriately reflects the re-designation of the institution.

The proposed changes include the re-introduction of divisional nomenclature and patches for the current Land Force Areas; traditional rank insignia for officers; corps shoulder titles following the restoration of traditional titles to a number of Canadian Army corps in April 2013; and the Canadian Army’s secondary badge. Further, the Minister of National Defence announced the intention to restore the historical Army rank names for non-commissioned members.

Divisional Nomenclature and Patches
Land Force Areas will be renamed as divisions and Canadian Army personnel will wear appropriate division patches. Formations will be renamed as follows:

Land Force Quebec Area will be referred to as “2nd Canadian Division”;
Land Force Western Area will be referred to as “3rd Canadian Division”;
Land Force Central Area will be referred to as “4th Canadian Division”;
Land Force Atlantic Area will be referred to as “5th Canadian Division”; and
Land Force Doctrine and Training System will be referred to as “Canadian Army Doctrine and Training Centre”.
There will be no change to 1st Canadian Division Headquarters.

Corps Shoulder Titles
Following the restoration of the Canadian Army’s corps in April 2013, corps metal and cloth shoulder titles will be produced.

Army Rank Names
The historical rank names for non-commissioned members, which have long been used informally, are being considered for formalization, at which point they would change as follows:

Privates of the Royal Canadian Armoured Corps will be referred to as “Trooper”;
Privates and corporals of the Royal Regiment of Canadian Artillery will be referred to as “Gunner” and “Bombardier” respectively;
Privates of the Corps of Royal Canadian Engineers will be referred to as “Sapper”;
Privates of the Royal Canadian Corps of Signals will be addressed as “Signaller”;
Some Privates of the Royal Canadian Infantry Corps will be referred to as “Fusilier,” “Rifleman” or “Guardsman”, depending on their type of unit; and
Privates of the Corps of Royal Canadian Electrical and Mechanical Engineers will be referred to as “Craftsman”.
In addition, the second lieutenants and warrant officers in Guards regiments will be addressed as “Ensign” and “Colour Sergeant”, respectively.

Traditional Insignia for Officers
In line with the formalization of historical rank names for non-commissioned members, the traditional army officer rank insignia – with the stars, or “pips,” and crowns – are being restored. This ranking system is more than a hundred years old and continues to be used by armies the world over. Historically, the variations of the stars and crown were used to delineate rank so that officers could recognize each other on the battlefield. Canadian Army colonels and general officers will also wear the traditional gorget patches.

Canadian Army Secondary Badge
The new Canadian Army secondary badge is based on the historical Canadian Army badge used during and after the Second World War. It features the crossed swords, overlaid by three maple leaves conjoined on one stem. A crown is placed atop the maple leaves. The secondary badge will be displayed on the Canadian Army ensign and pocket badge.

All good and distinctive news. As for the ranks, Warrants Officers have worn crowns since Unification 'unified' the rank badges across the CAF. If Army majors reverts to old fashioned ranks, who will be saluting who?

The names for trained soldiers have been used forever, although maybe just informally.

By numbering the areas, there is bound to be even greater confusion.

Easy peazy, Major's are the ones with swagger sticks being followed closely by Pte Baldrick.

Cheers

That, and the haircuts should give it away.

Non-commissioned members

They need to dump this stupid "members" phrase as well. No one calls them "NCM's" it always "NCO's". When they brought it out I thought I was being offered a membership in the Moose Lodge.

When writing PERs, my Captain would not allow us to use the term "member" in the PER, because it made him think of a penis. So instead we had to use "Cpl Bloggins" and "he" repeatedly throughout the evaluation narrative.

All of these changes are in order to wipe out the legacy of the liberal party of Canada, and even a higher up Liberal was complaining about it in the news yesterday. The idea of having a politically correct and environmentally friendly army is a bit of an oxymoron.

Quote:

As for the ranks, Warrants Officers have worn crowns since Unification 'unified' the rank badges across the CAF. If Army majors reverts to old fashioned ranks, who will be saluting who?

Small crown = Major = Salute

Large crown = WO = No salute

As this only applies to Orders of Dress other than DEW the discussion included the use of a horizontal line below the Major's Crown (similar to an Officer Cadet's current rank badge) to identify the Major from the WO. This was mostly to assist foreign soldiers who would not be familiar enough with the different sizes of Crowns. The other option was to just not do anything.
C

There is a lot of discussion in the media on this with many of the 'unwashed masses' complaining of the costs. This is understandable as the Minister's announcement put the accent on a return to heritage rank symbols.
Insofar as the Army was concerned, this was a pleasant, and welcome, by-product but the focus was on two items;
1. Inter-operability with Allied nations. Most countries with which Canada is aligned wear rank symbols where three identical devices identify a Captain and a single (different) device identifies a Major. Anyone who has done a UN tour will have noted that Egypt, Jordan, Croatia, and many others, as well as all of the Commonwealth countries, follow this practice. Canadian Army officers have attended international meetings in the field and have been asked both their rank and "why is the Navy here?" due to the existing rank stripes. In fact, of our major Allies only the US and France do not follow this system.
2. Cost. Every new officer and every promoted officer incurred tailoring costs to DND. The tailor was required to open the seam, unstitch the lining, remove the rank, sew on new rank, stitch the lining and re-sew the seam. An estimnated cost of $27.00 per uniform. Additionally, every officer incurred private costs for Mess Dress. Compare to pinning on a new star or crown at a cost of under $1.00. Further, the current rank symbols require every base tailor to stock separate rolls of every rank from O/Cdt to Col and almost 40cm are used per uniform. Compare to two boxes, one containing stars, another crowns.

Clive

I am sorry that I won't be in uniform to see this change take place. It is a good move that aligns the Canadian army with our hard fought military heritage. Some may say it is too "British", but the majority will not have such reservations. This is just another move that will serve to undo the damage done by the Liberals to one of Canada's most important institutions.

Next step: Reinstate the Airborne Regiment!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hans Mulder (Post 182460)

Small crown = Major = Salute

Large crown = WO = No salute

optionally;

Major - Don't salute, get shit.
Warrant Officer - Salute, get shit. :)

A hundred years ago we had a Canadian Survey Corps Major on exchange on a job in Papua New Guinea. The Canadians had not long changed to combined forces or whatever it was called.

Apart from the Australian soldiers treating him like an Air Force officer ie ignoring him because of his stripes, he was openly depressed that politicians and their politically correct advisors were allowed to destroy a heritage going back to before the Romans.

The separation of land, sea and later air, elements recognised their unique areas of expertise along with specialised skill and training.

The bleeding hearts can not come to grips with the fact an army is purely and simply a killing machine. No matter how you dress it up with parades, rescues in flood/fire/famine or "peace keeping", the only reason for spending an obscene amount of money on an army is in the hope we can kill more of them than they kill of us before our country is occupied or destroyed in times of absolute national threat.

A big part of this is tradition and many is the time a smaller or lesser equipped force with greater belief in themselves has defeated a superior enemy purely through morale. Having everyone in the same school uniform using contrived names, ranks and job descriptions seriously damages the backs-to-the-wall motivation of the entire force.

Great move Canada to finally see some sense!

Lang

Quote:

Originally Posted by rob love (Post 182455)

I heard that. The Liberal defence critic said this had to do with wiping out the Liberal brand from the Armed Forces. What a hypocrite. As if Liberal unification, gas station attendant uniforms, wonky rank structures and removal of all things 'Royal' wasn't an attempt remove traditional symbols and re-brand things themselves.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Michael R. (Post 182489)

[I] ...
We should get a move on to have those 115,000 or so active "member's" uniforms changed up, and supplies stocked into "the system". Will it be just in time to change the whole dang lot to a King's crown?

The Windsor crown is with us for a while. I have no idea where or how I remember this factoid, but Prince William apparently has no interest in changing the crowns. They are too deeply ingrained across the Commonwealth to change easily. (While HRH Queen Elizabeth II had to change when she stepped up is beyond my pay grade.)

Any word on the implementation timeline?

Well all us blue guys ,if we revert back to our pre Hellyard ,as Warrant officers ,we now become Flight Sergeants..
Yea..Bring it on!!
Canadian politicians are not and never have been interested in defence," he wrote, adding "the Canadian public cannot escape a share of the blame. Too many of our people think that all we enjoy was always there, was not fought for, will just continue, without our personal attention. We are no longer pulling our weight in international affairs. While some reasonable degree of freedom still remains for us under our form of government, we must face the fact that this freedom will soon disappear unless we exercise our rights wisely. We must take greater pains to ensure that we are well enough informed to choose wise leaders - perhaps, great leaders.
Jeff Brock
Rear Admiral
http://www.navalandmilitarymuseum.or...ification.html