Firing Range Wrecks, Tracked Armour, wheeled or otherwise
 

What's the general opinion out there of people who have acquired items off firing ranges through one way or another then flog it on to private vehicle restores for High profit?.

Kevin.

I don't know the opinion of the General :D

But I think for many salesmen it is just a case of sourcing the material for which there is a demand, be it range wrecks or containers stuffed with garden furniture coming from Indonesia. They think "buy low, sell high" - it is as simple as that. As long as they legally source the stuff they flog, there isn't anything wrong legally. Morally? Maybe....
I know some guys who have personally restored range wrecks - seeing how much money, time and other resources they spent, it could never have been a case of making money but a labour of love.

That my 2 Euro-cents worth, anyway...

I suggest someone who is even able to get a range wreck off the range and into private hands where it will be saved is to be commended. Selling it for a profit seems like the normal way of doing business. Nobody is going to pay a premium BECAUSE it is a range wreck; the price will be what someone is willing to pay or it will remains unsold, and if there is not enough profit to offset the effort, perhaps lost.

This is of course assuming the wreck is legally acquired and the purchaser has clean title to it.

In my perfect world a lot of rare plinth vehicles would be acquired by organizations or people who would restore them to running condition.

Bruce, that day may yet come.

It was not that many years back in the UK where people suddenly realized all the historic WW2 Fighters serving as gate guardians were rotting away and became concerned. A few enterprising companies developed brilliant fibreglass repros and most, if not all of the gate guardians were swapped out. Not sure if all the real planes were saved and restored.

May take a lot longer for armour and artillery to reach that point, but they might.


David

Give us some examples Kevin.

Valentine
 

Here is an image taken in 1981 in the Petawawa Training Area. This Valentine had been used as a PIAT target. At least a decade later this vehicle was 'recovered' by DND, but nothing was ever done with it and I think it was subsequently scrapped or buried due to lack of interest/knowledge.

http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e3...ps1a5adt7z.jpg

What are you angling at Kevin? As a participant in the "free market" are you now objecting to it?
I've yet to see or hear about you giving or selling something cheap for the "general benefit of the hobby" so to speak.
I don't understand the reasoning for your post. Is there something specific that has happened that you object to?

My general opinion is that: I hate everybody else making big profits, but I wish I could. :devil:

Adrian, I had a guy this week offer me a 6 pdr with cradle, cut off half way up the barrel, he said he got it off a firing range one Christmas Eve. He wanted £10,000 for it.

Lynn, regarding your comment about 'giving or selling something cheap' you don't know me and you live the other side of the world!.

Kevin,

What if he had offered the gun to you for £500? Would you have bought it? If he is lucky enough to salvage it, by any means, good luck to him. it is a free market. Do you think anyone would pay £10,000?

Like Bruce said, did he legally acquire the wreck and does he have proof of ownership?

H.

Is it a real mount or one someone has made and claiming it to be genuine after stamping dates etc on it ?

Jack, no I wouldnt of bought it, as it wasn't his to sell at any price.

Shaun, I never saw the item so can't comment whether it was original or not. Your probably referring to items perhaps I have made/had made in the past, in particular to some Centaur tank data plates which I foolishly passed for sale on an Internet site, also other repro parts with misleading title. I have learnt from this and corrected it when pointed out, I can only apologise and won't do it again. But I don't mind you hitting me over the head with it ever other week Shaun. I've put me hands up to it guilty as charged.

Kevin.

Perhaps it's karma

Kevin has been more than generous helping me out with hard to find items and, yes, even giving them away or selling them for well below their value.

While off topic, this may speak to another observation in this hobby. There are exchanges between like minded people (giveaways, trades, selling for "what I paid for it years ago") and also sales at outrageous prices to the market at large. I'm guilty of it, the logic being that a rare item I sell at the best possible price rolls revenue right back into an ongoing project. On the other hand a giveaway to a friend collector to help them out not only benefits the hobby but more often than not is returned in kind. I am way more inclined to give something away I know will find its way onto a viable restoration than to a stranger.

Having said that, if one was considering buying a derelict vehicle today with the intent of restoring it, and looked at the prices charged for parts, that might well dissuade the person from thinking about it in the first place. Or looking at it from the other side, if I didn't have the means to source parts at reasonable prices I couldn't afford being in this hobby.

Selling/ buying militaria and historic artefacts
 

Gents, we live in an imperfect world inhabited by imperfect humans
, and i am the " perfect" example. I have made mistakes , some stupid and will continue altought less frequent because of experience. I strive having fun doing this hobby. Sometimes it is not fun because of the different objectives and goals and temperaments. So forgive and forget and move on to the next project is my method. And yes it is frustrating when enterprising individuals sell me stuff at a premium when their cost is nearly nothing especially when it comes from a Gov property range or Base . But then maybe i should of dared to ask myself . i have shot at hard targets on the ranges in Gagetown, Valcartier and Suffield for nearly 28 years now and it never crossed my mind to ask or try karting off with one ! This tread could just of been my Revelation ! thanks Kev . Bob

I've been on the receiving end of both poles of the sales spectrum. Some wish to sell junk as gold, some would sell ridiculously cheap, just to help another restorer out. Most of those I deal with now, fall into the latter category. If it's not worth the asking to me, I stays unsold, with the exception of an expensive sidevalve V8 which I took at word of the seller as 'good rebuildable'. On later disassembly, it was rusted solid, and total junk. I'm wiser now. That won't happen again.......I hope.

If it smells like a rat, it will probably bite!

I have a fellow who often sources vehicles and parts, that he offers me at very reasonable prices, even though he knows he COULD ask more, based on my needs. He is not only a source or parts, he is now a good friend and I value any opportunity to interact with him. His character has been proven through many deals with me. Incidentally, if I believe he is asking too little, I insist onmpaying fair price. That way, we can respect eash other!

Range wrecks, never seen any here. Dont think the Defence Force offer anything to private folks here in Australia. Anyone welcome to correct that, if they know to the contrary.

Range wrecks
 

Tony, check out Wayne Henderson's staghound thread.

obtaining parts - paying forward
 

I agree with many of the opinions above, as I too have found fellow collectors to be very generous, especially when they know the parts are going into a project that is underway, not just 'onto the shelf'.

I am also a great believer in 'paying forward', as often the opportunity arrives to help others who are just embarking on a restoration.

We have an active of group of 'young guns' in our national club, who are taking on restorations. They are the future of the hobby, and will help ensure there is a market for our vehicles when we eventually need to divest.

I recall the help I got as a young fella 35 odd years ago restoring my first HMV, and it has continued ever since.

When buying from older collectors I acknowledge that the parts would have gone to scrap long ago if they hadn't got them, and the storage costs are not insignificant: land occupied by wrecks is not earning money as development projects

That's my half pennies worth
Rob
(and I remember halfpennys!)

Recovering range wrecks
 

The two vehicles I recovered from ranges here in WA was after 3 years of phone calls, emails and meetings. Initial responses were to the negative but with persistence and contacts I eventually got permission and assistance from Defence in the recovery.

Would I do it again, no.