Known British Ford S/M Contracts
 

It's all gone quiet on the forums front recently so I thought I would stir up some more interest. This is a non-definitive contract listing including Canadian and US Fords. Note that this is non-definitive as I have not yet included or checked all known S/M contracts from the Census Listing.

Known S.M. (Supply Mechanical) numbers against chassis types:
2002 Ford Model Number C101WF
2003 Ford Model Number C01QF
2004 Ford Model Number EC098T
2019 Ford Model Number EC018QF E.g. F60L # 12 Cab
2020 Ford Model Number EC011QF
2027 Ford Model Number C11ADF
2030 Ford Model Number EC011DF
2031 Ford Model Number C101WF
2037 Ford Model Number EC018QF
2044 Ford Model Number C11ADF
2046 Ford Model Number EC098T
2079 Ford Model Number C101WF
2104 Ford Model Number C018QF or C298QF [Including for SINGAPORE but may have been diverted to Australia, and EGYPT]
E.G. CHASSIS F-60448-M CAB 13
CHASSIS SERIAL 68048
ENGINE SERIAL 3G-20324-F
CONTRACT SM2104 BUILT MAR 17/42
In Australian Army service, this truck wore the ARN (Army Registered Number) of 53050.

2105 N/a
2106 Ford Model Number C018QF or C298QF “Shipped direct to overseas” # 12 BASRA [400] and AUSTRALIA
2126 Ford Model Number C018QF or C298QF [Australia] E.g. # 2G7785F #12 [and # 13 cabs?]MIXED ORDER WITH CHEVROLET 8842 C60S?
2127 Ford Model Number C018QF or C298QF [Australia] E.g. # 3G7606 # 12 [and # 13 cabs?] MIXED ORDER WITH CHEVROLET 8842 C60S? [#13]
2141 Ford Model Number C010QF [126 for India: Breakdown?]
2142 Ford Model Number? Indian Pattern FAT 101” w.b. C291QH?
2145 Ford Model Number C298QF [Including for NZ and EGYPT]
2204 Ford Model Number C298QF [Australia] E.g. # 3G42680
2253 Ford Model Number C010QF [72 for INDIA: breakdown?]
2254 Ford Model Number C010QF [75 for INDIA: breakdown?]
2265 Ford Model Number EC098T [Including for INDIA]
2266 Ford Model Number C298QF
2275 Willys/Ford Model Number Jeep
2287 Ford Model Number C101WF
2293 Ford Model Number EC098T
2326 Ford Model Number? 15-cwt. 4 x 2 128” w.b. [for EGYPT]
2356 Ford Model Number EC098T
2409 Ford Model Number C298TFS FC60L? 160” 4 x 2 EGYPT AND DUALA [300] and SIERRE LEONE [600]
2451 Ford Model Number 158” w.b. C298QF?
2457 Ford Model Number C298QF [also for EGYPT]/shared with C.60L FOR UK
2458 Ford Model Number C298TFS FC60L? 160” 4 x 2 [for EGYPT ALSO AUSTRALIA]
2459 Ford Model Number C291W [for AUSTRALIA and NZ]
2463 Ford Model Number C291W [for MOMBASA]
2464 Ford Model Number C298QF [for MOMBASA]
2465 Ford Model Number C298QF
2466 Ford Model Number C298QF
2467 Ford Model Number C298QF [for MOMBASA]
2484 Ford Model Number C101WF
2487 Ford Model Number C29Q
2532 Ford Model Number C298QF for INDIA
2534 Ford Model Number? 3-ton 4 x 2 134” for INDIA
2537 1. Ford Model Number? 8-cwt. 4 x 4 for INDIA was this the F.8A C011DQF? 228 units by 1 October 1942 or C291QH?
2537 2. Ford Model Number C298QF or C298QFS 3-ton 158” 4 x 4 60 units for INDIA by 1 September 1942
2538 Ford Model Number C298QF for INDIA
2563 Ford Model Number C01QF
2606 Ford 29T/Marmon-Herrington KMM5-4/ Klauer Snogo LTR [1942]
2645 Ford Model Number C39QB
2671 Ford Model Number C298TFS
2721 Ford 29T/Marmon-Herrington KMM5-4/ Klauer Snogo LTR [1942/3] [circa 80 units] E.g. # KMM5-4-529368
2857 Ford Model Number C395Q
2871 Ford Model Number C298TFS
2939 Ford Model Number? Articized
2949 Ford Model Number? Articized
6143 Ford Model Number F.60S [C29Q?]
6337 Ford Model Number C291Q.L. -1
6357 Ford Model Number C291WQ
6389 Ford Model Number C291Q/ C291Q.L-W E.g. # 5G-420-F 11/1945
6438 Ford Model Number C291WQ
6537 Ford Model Number C298QF [C.60L]

Also it's not checked yet against the 1942 Canadian contracts listing either, but it's enough perhaps to prompt some more additions that readers may know of.

Re: Known British Ford S/M Contracts
 

David, is there any more information available about Sply-Mech. 2606?

Thanks,
Hanno

S/M 2606
 

Hanno, we only knew about this one from a plate off a Sno-Go. However we now believe that there may be record cards in the Bovington library and I have got to go down there shortly...I have a challenge! Oh, there are also the other record cards of course ex-Beverley.

RLC MUSEUM REFERENCE

Re: S/M 2606
 

David, would you happen to have the exact details off this plate? A pic/rubbing/scan of it, maybe?

H.

PLATE
 

Can you do a search and find out the MLU reference which is where I got it from please?

Re: PLATE
 

David, if the thread "SM 2606 - Here's one for David in Snowy Southampton" was your source, we're going round in circles. I'm trying to find out more about Mike Kelly's manual with "Sply-Mech. 2606" on the cover. Note it does not mention this was for "Ford 29T/Marmon-Herrington KMM5-4/ Klauer Snogo LTR [1942]" as you list it. The Wheels & Tracks SnoGo article gives S/M 2721 (though this contract number doesn't appear on Gordon's vehicle anywhere), but you already have that listed.

I'll get you the details about S/M 2606 off the cover later on - could you please try to find out more about this contract next time you're going through the record cards?

H.

WILCO!
 

I now have a challenge!

S/M Contracts
 

David: You've just stirred up my interest in my LAAT so I'll double check the S/M number and post it for you next week.

Cheers! Mike

Courtesy of Mike Kelly here's a scan of the cover. Full text reads:

ILLUSTRATED SPARE PARTS LIST for BRITISH ARMY
3 TON 4x2 - 134" W.B.
SUPPLIED ON SPLY-MECH. 2606 ONLY
BUILT FOR BRITISH WAR DEPARTMENT
Ford Motor Company of Canada Limited
SE 130 Issued October, 1942

There are no pictures in the parts list of the truck itself, but it's right hand drive. It can't be a FC60L, as that has a 158" wheelbase. Plus, like Mike said, this manual has a section at the back listing Marmon-Herrington front axle and transfer case parts.

Who can shed any light on this? (Over to you, :teach: David)

H.

!
 

I was thinking in terms of C29WFS with 134" w.b. but I thought that was a '44 Model with # 43 cab! My suggestion is C29T, 134" w.b. as supplied to Commonwealth Forces.

Would that be this one?
 

http://data2.collectionscanada.ca/e/e031/e000760736.jpg

As seen in this thread.

Source

Latest list
 

I am making all enquiries but the suggestion at the moment is that 1942 Contract S/M 2606 was for C29T chassis.

I thought it appropriate here to update Ford, Chevrolet and Dodge/Fargo listings, the former having an up-to-date Contract listing. I hope you have Broadband and/or patience but here they are:

1. British Ford Contracts
Please note that this file is being upgraded as I can, with new information as and when it comes to hand. The list of Contracts does not necessarily correlate with those in the Census Number listing above it (in the table) so both must be read together.
2. British Chevrolet Contracts
3. British Dodge and Fargo Contracts Because this file will not save as htm very well it is a Word file so 'open' it when asked to do so or not.
4. British GMC Contracts

Re: Latest list
 

C29T is indeed the base vehicle, but other than this part list, what evidence is there of Ford 3 ton 4x2 134" wb trucks with Marmon-Herrington front driven axle being delivered to the Britsh Army?
WRM 1991 indeed shows a right-hand drive 1942 model Ford, but with 158" wb as far as I can tell. i.e. a C298TF or C298TFS.


Pictured below is a 1942 model 3-ton 4x2 134" wb dump truck, but with left-hand drive, i.e a 298U or C298U:
http://www.mapleleafup.net/forums/at...0&d=1123315712
source

Once bit of evidence
 

Whilst I am making enquiries about the record cards, etc. it occurred to me that the conversion of the basic truck to 4x4 would have been ideal for the snow-clearing units. There were of course the three batches of FWD HAR-01 trucks, some of which were converted to snow-blowers but these had RAF serials and are thus not in the WD Census List. On that basis is there any evidence that the RAF used C29T M-H conversions?

Re: Once bit of evidence
 

Exactly, this was the US-built Ford/M-H SnoGo!
I don't understand, are you suggesting RAF vehicles were not ordered through the British War Department and thus would not show up on the Sply-Mech. listings?

H.

Re: Re: Once bit of evidence
 

Hanno to me I read also that David has suggested RAF ordered vehicles did not go through the War Dept listings and do not show on the supply Mech listings.

If this is so it may explain why some vehicles do not show in these listings.

cheers
Cliff:salute:

RAF/Admiralty/WD Contracts
 

Hanno, after the Ministry of Supply was established by August 1939 they took over the ordering of and for firstly the War Department, and then the RAF (Air Ministry) but not the Admiralty. They may have also ordered vehicles for 'civilian' government-approved users such as the Salvation Army, Red Cross, St Johns Ambulance, Church Army, YWCA, Food Programme, Salvage Corps, National Fire Service, et al although National Archives papers suggest that vehicles for the Ministry of Works say and local authorities may have been acquired through the M of W and other Ministries and Departments directly responsible save that wartime demobbed military vehicles were disposed of through the M of S to other Ministries and Departments.

The WD Census Number listings only refer to UK-allocated WD Census Numbers and not RAF and Royal Navy serials. Thus only WD S/M Contracts appear in the WD listing with some exceptions e.g. when there was a transfer between Service branches. I have never been concerned with RN vehicles ordered by the Admiralty although this changed recently when the Bedford QLT models came out and I had to do a review..I still have no idea whether there are record cards for RN and RM vehicles but they, in common with RAF vehicles, had a different numbering system. The same of course applied with Dutch/Polish/Czech forces with their own WD Census Number series as well as the Canadian series!

In addition the Ministry of Supply placed Contracts for overseas supplies, both for British and Commonwealth orders and deliveries/accounts. Mid-East, Far East, African, et al deliveries whilst being acquired under S/M Contracts would also not appear in the WD UK Census List. However the record cards should in theory exist to show all S/M Contracts for overseas delivery and supply, e.g. we know that Dodge cards exist showing non-UK deliveries with their theatre-allocated Census Numbers. There should be record cards relating to RAF vehicles as they were provided by the M of S, and that is what we are hunting for!

Although reference is made to US-buiilt Sno-Gos, these, if rhd, would most likely have been Canadian-sourced I suggest and thus converted by Canadian Traction Ltd to M-H 4 x 4 after official delivery by Ford, Windsor.

Re: RAF/Admiralty/WD Contracts
 

Never realised that, thanks.
Are you sure? The Dutch were supplied vehicles through the British, as far as I know the Czech were as well, even the Canadian Army to a certain extent (especially US-built vehicles).
Let's try some logical deduction:
Fact: Ford/Marmon-Herrington SnoGos were US-built, left-hand drive, and supplied to the RAF under S/M 2721.
Fact: S/M 2606 was for right-hand drive 3-ton 134" wheel-base trucks supplied by Ford Canada, converted with Marmon-Herrington front driven axle and transfer case (these could have been converted by Canadian Traction Ltd.)
Fact: A parts list pertaining to S/M 2606 surfaces in Australia.
Tought: Could we in fact be looking at a kit of parts supplied to Australia to be used for the construction of the Dingo Light Armoured Car?

H.

Clarification
 

The Czech, Dutch, Polish, forces were supplied by the British as well as it seems in the case of the first and third, by overseas donations which enabled them to purchase 'commercially' as well: e.g. the ambulances which were paid for in New York City and then donated but delivered by GM Overseas Operations through GM Ltd, Southampton. Something similar must have been the case with Canadian/US Fords, and Dodge? However what I meant to state is that these forces in the UK were allocated their own WD-style Census Number system as were the Canadian forces, and any acquired by the British Ministry of Supply and then 'sold' or 'transferred' to them would have had either 'S/M'. 'T/M' (armoured?) or domestic series Contracts {E.g. S.xxxx, T.xxxx) with records cards.

Whilst I know of Canadian orders which would have had 'CDLV' Contract prefixes being 'sold' to thew British, no Canadian vehicles in the UK would have been supplied by the M of S excepting those British-built that were sold to the Canadian Government through London for cash (for food).

Interesting point about the Dingo, Hanno, and well worth exploring further as Australian deliveries paid for by the British Ministry of Supply and then accounts settled subsequently did use 'S/M' contracts! Compare this with Australian contracts placed direct, which used the Australian system.

Knowing nothing about the Australian Dingo, I have been doing some online research. Hanno, I see that you have referred to the Ford/M-H Dingop before.

http://www.oldcmp.net/Dingo_1.html
http://www.geocities.com/vmvc1au/dingo.html

Note the example chassis number is a 1941 Engine but of course rhd! But note trhe Dingo had a 110"-inch wheelbase, and were built late 1941:

http://www.jedsite.info/4x4afv/delta...au-series.html


There appears to have been 245 units which may well have been the subject of a S/M Ministry of Supply contract for the bare chassis. Am I right in suggesting that Victorian Railway built the bodies?

http://www.awm.gov.au/corporate/files/2000_jan_jun.htm [00/2049]

refers to an AWM file that may contain information on the ordering of the Dingo and thus refer to the British (or Australian!) contract for the chassis from Ford of Canada. If the Contract was NOT S/M 2606 then it was possibly an earlier one, unknown to me at this juncture.

There is a number on my truck
 

Puff the SnoGo has a very worn plastic plate on the dash. I don't remember what it said, but when I put the advert on MILWEB I said SM 2721 so I assume that's what is on the plate but not sure.


Gordon

Thanks
 

Thank you Gordon.

Re: Clarification
 

When further studying the parts list, I was triggered by the index (see pic below). As no cab or body parts or reference to them are listed, one can deduct this spare parts list relates to a kit of chassis and running gear parts supplied to an overseas plant for incorporation in a local design. Apart from a desgin like the Australian Dingo, this kit of parts could very well have been supplied to South Africa for use in the manufacture of the South African Reconnaissance Car, Mark II and III!

Re: Clarification
 

The frame assembly has part no A01T 5005 CS, indicating the basis was a 1940 134" wb 1½ Ton Truck. Would "A" indicate Australian design, just as "C" indicates Canadian design?

Seeing the construction of the Dingo's frame combined with its non-Ford standard 110" wheelbase, I can draw no other conclusion this was a shortened and modified frame. Frame assembly A01T 5005 CS is made up from components with 01T, 01Y, 21T, 81T and 11A part numbers.
http://www.oldcmp.net/Images/Dingo/cecil/cecil_1.jpg
Source: http://www.oldcmp.net/Dingo_1.html

I'll ask Mike Cecil if he can shed further light on this.

H.

Two comments:
 

1. I asked some time back whether Austrlian Fords used 'A' prefixes in common with the rest of the Ford empire, save for Dearborn etc of course! No reply in the affirmative save for this bit of evidence!

2. The Mark II appears to be too early for S/M 2606 except that it could have been an earlier S/M Contract! The Mark III would appear to be about the right time-scale, though I may be wrong, and you answered my query about w.b.: if the Dingo used a shortened chassis the Mark III could have done so post-Windsor assembly or supply.

Also I made the correct personal assumption that there was no reference to a cab in the Parts List and therefore the supply was a rolling chassis of sorts. Is there no reference to a Ford of Canada Model Number? I would assume not if it was basically a C29T 'kit of parts'. [As an aside a Dagenham-assembled version would have become an 'EC29T' reflecting local assembly of the CKD kit. I have no idea whether Port Elizabeth, SA, Plant used 'S' as a prefix, or 'Z'].

May I just add here as well:
These F60L trucks would have had an S/M Contract reference, for delivery to Egypt, but the fact that they were diverted to Port Elizabeth would not have negatived their Ministry of Supply Contract which would be on the packing crates and also on the Ford of Canada build plate.

What Ford chassis did the Mark IV use as it was rear-engined?

Clarification II
 

There is one known exception to this comment! There had to be of course!!!
EC196TFS Ford V-8 3.9 4-spd 3-ton 14’8” 2-speed rear axle and 7.50 x 20 tyres for Canadian Forestry Corps. These were based on the C196T Canadian Ford chassis, but a CKD kit, but were assembled in Dagenham under British contract fromthe Ministry of Supply, V.4629...two elements to this therefore: a) S/M 2048 for a 1941 Model Canadian Ford chassis kit,
b) M of S contract with Ford Motor Co. for assembly of those kits, which was in fact Contract 294/V/4629 to give it its full official reference used by Fords.

The EC196TFS was the last British 'E'-prefixed' Canadian Ford. That said EC01QF F60Ls were delivered to S/M 2019 for Mid-East delivery in 1941 + which may have included the components for the SA Mark IVF, and although ostensibly a 1940-placed Contract these were delivered from 1941 so was a possible candidate.
However this is from the 1942 Canadian Contracts listing and it refers also to another possible Contract:
SOUTH AFRICA

SM 2356 3-TON 4 X 2 158” W.B. C098T or C298TFS
SM 2368 3-TON 4 X 4 158” W.B. F.60L and/or C.60L
SM 2369 15-CWT. 4 X 2 101” W.B. F.15 and/or C.15
SM 2370 F.A.T. 4 X 4 F.-GT and/or C.-G.T. 141
SM 2371 STATION WAGONS FORD?
SM 2457 3-TON 4 X 4 158” W.B. C018QF F.60L [Used in ACs?]
SM 2462 ½ -TON 4 X 2 116” W.B. DODGE T-116 DD-1
SM 2597 3-TON 4 X 4 158” W.B. F.60L and/or C.60L
SM 2598 30-CWT. 4 X 4 134” W.B. F.30 and/or C.30 [I made this assumption...it could perhaps be for ACs?]
SM 2599 15-CWT. 4 X 2 F.15 and/or C.15 E.g. # XG8421160??

Re: Clarification
 

Mike Cecil in his book on Australian Scout cars said: "The "Car, Scout (Aust) Dingo" was based on a Ford 30-cwt commercial lorry chassis of 134.5in wheelbase which was shortened to 110in wheelbase. This was acheived by cutting at about the middle of the side members and removing the centre section."
And "The Dingo was powered by either of two Ford sidevalve V8 engines, although the actual number of each engine model used is not clear. Reports indicate that vehicles indicate that vehicles with ARNs from 77001 to 77186, ie the first 186 vehicles, had a 3 1/16in bore, 85hp engine of 221ci displacement, while the balance had a 3 3/16in, 95hp engine of 239ci displacement. However, registration records indicate that the 239ci engine was also installed in vehicles from 77165 to 77179 inclusive."
This may seem to indicate that there were two batches of orders of chassis for the Dingo, 172x model 01TF and 73x model 29TF.

I wonder if the Marmon-Herrington gun tractors based on 1938-1941 Ford trucks were supplied as complete trucks, or just as chassis with Ford Australia manufacturing the cabs? If Ford Aust were manufacturing complete truck cabs, it would explain the mention of only chassis and running gear in the parts book.

Re: Two comments:
 

Correct, there's no reference to a complete vehicle. I'd designate it as a C29TFS, because of the right-hand drive ("F") and front driven axle ("S"). Also, it is the prime example of the CKD-pack method, i.e. a set of previously unassembled vehicle parts shipped to an overseas assembly plant.
The South African Reconnaissance Car Mark IV did not have a chassis, the automotive components were attached directly to the all-welded armour hull. The engine, radiator and all ancillaries were attached to a frame, thus forming a quickly demountable "power pack". In various ways, the Mark IV was an innovative design.
A "30-cwt commercial lorry" is the same as a "1½ Ton Truck", isn't it?
The engine assembly part no. listed is CD19TFS 6097 ZN0G.

Quote:

I wonder if the Marmon-Herrington gun tractors based on 1938-1941 Ford trucks were supplied as complete trucks, or just as chassis with Ford Australia manufacturing the cabs? If Ford Aust were manufacturing complete truck cabs, it would explain the mention of only chassis and running gear in the parts book.

As far as I can tell, the Ford Geelong plant assembled vehicles from CKD packs, manufacturing their own cabs and bodies and other parts (pic below is AWM ID Number: 004132/23, captured "GEELONG, VIC 1940-12-11. FORD MOTOR WORKS. ASSEMBLY LINE WORKERS CONSTRUCTING TRUCK CABINS.")

Correction
 

Hanno, I meant to ask instead of
I discounted C191QRF and succesors as they were parts, not complete vehicles prima facie . There was indeed apparently a S/M Contract series for components and parts, in the S/M 3001+ series I seem to remember as the 1001+ series was for armoured vehicles et at. The soft-skins & motorcycles series started at S/M 2001, although the first that I know of was S/M 2002, then it jumped to the 6001+ series.

Mike Cecil
 

Just had an email back from Mike who asked for the contract date and numbers supplied. Mike has no record of that S/M linked to an Aust Contract Demand.

EDIT

A further comment from Mike:

Re: Known British Ford S/M Contracts
 

Just a minor correction for you David. The Chassis Serial should read 38048. I own the remains of this truck and I have the data plate in front of me now.

Regards
Rod