MLU FORUM - Tank Restoration 101 Class

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Tank Restoration 101 Class

From Todays Toronto Globe and Mail:

Quote:

History comes alive in shop class
RACHEL DE LAZZER
Globe and Mail Update
As a boy, Sean Carney would climb on Second World War tanks he saw in parks or in front of Legion halls. Yesterday, the 43-year-old shop teacher brought one to school.
Automotive technology students at Etobicoke Collegiate Institute will be refurbishing the tank as part of their course. Mr. Carney, a military history buff, thought it would be a great way to teach them the principles of diesel engines and metal fabrication, and give them an appreciation for a piece of history.
"We talked about it every class," said student Aaron McKee, 17. Asked whether he has ever had a teacher do anything like bring an army tank to class, he said, "Not even close."
"I was thrilled and ecstatic to touch a piece of history -- to have it after it's been through all its turmoil," Tanya Cagna, 17, said.
"This is about exposing my kids to a piece of history," Mr. Carney said. He teaches about 85 students from Grades 9 through 12, including about 15 girls.
He expects the refurbishing to take from two to five years. The tank will then be returned to Base Borden Military Museum in Borden, Ont., which is lending the tank to the school.
It's not the first time Mr. Carney has rolled a massive piece of machinery into the shop. Four or five years ago, he brought in a dump truck. Principal Ron Ellis said they had trouble getting it through the doors. In September, 2006, Mr. Carney asked the Department of National Defence and the Canadian Forces for a historic tank. In each case, he was told it was a great idea, but it would never happen because of the red tape involved.
In October, however, he took his students on a field trip to the Base Borden Military Museum, where he met retired Lieutenant-Colonel Stuart Beaton. Then he made his pitch.
"Anybody that [pursues] Canadian history of any kind, especially military history, I listen to," Mr. Beaton said. "We need all the help we can get because our government tends to forget about our history."
Within 1½ months, Mr. Beaton had cleared up the legal details and paperwork needed to lend the M4 Sherman to the school.
"From a historical point of view, these things are just sitting there rotting," said Mr. Carney, who told the agencies when he made his requests that it wouldn't cost them anything -- and he would give them back a restored tank.
He believes only about 500 of the M4 Sherman model tanks, dubbed the Firefly, were ever made.
Bob Smale, history teacher at ECI, said the M4 Sherman was a British variation on the Sherman tank designed exclusively to take out German Tiger tanks. The barrel was about twice as long as the barrel on a regular Sherman tank.
The Germans knew the M4 Shermans were a threat, so they would try to take them out before other tanks, Mr. Carney said, making the soldiers operating them a target.
The school is looking for financial support from the community for the purchase of parts and metal to remake the historic tank.
*****
The M4 Sherman
1944: M4 Sherman was created, an upgraded model from regular Sherman tank
450: approximate number of M4 Shermans produced
30,000 -- kilograms, total weight
7.7: Kilograms, weight of gun (compared with 2.7 kilograms on regular Sherman tank)
7.7: kilograms, weight of shells fired (compared with 2.7 kilograms on regular Sherman tank)
Firefly: nickname
Built: by Chrysler, Ford, GM, Canadian Pacific Railway, among others
1946: M4 Sherman model borrowed this week by Etobicoke Collegiate Institute arrives at Base Borden
Yesterday: M4 Sherman arrives at ECI for refurbishing by students.
Source: Lieutenant-Colonel Stuart Beaton (retired)

Pictures From Toronto papers

"Mommy, we're playing with army tanks at school"

"you mean evil war machines with guns, son?"

(looks more like a Grizzly than a Sherman to me)

Guns...but.......

Quote:

Originally posted by Bruce Parker
"you mean evil war machines with guns, son?"

(looks more like a Grizzly than a Sherman to me)

Bruce
I was in conversation with The Public Affairs people from Borden and I quote from our correspondence....

Funny thing about the story is that no one knew there wasn't an engine
in the beast until Monday afternoon when the EME crew arrived to load
the tank onto the transport trucks. When they popped the hatch, there
was nothing to be found!

Anyway, here's my story (for your entertainment) with a couple of
photos for your viewing.

Anyway I offered the school free manuals ,which is allways my custom,to schools restoring Canadian Military Vehicles as school projects..
I'll keep the forum updated as I get more info..
:remember :support :drunk:

I wish my teachers had dome something like that!!! Very cool :cool:

Certainly a neat effort but, for Mr carmey who want to teach the kids about the priciples of diesel engines etc I think he has a small problem there...

It begs me to ask the question then, how exactly is the school going to tackle this project considering a) there is no source of propulsion and I doubt the school has the capability to move it around and b) I doubt the school has the ability to manhandle the large components eg with a crane etc.

I suspect this is a simple cleanup, paint etc job. Good for them anyway but hardly a restoration by any means...

P.S. my other question is why in the world would they loan out such a unique and relatively rare piece of armour for a bunch of highschool brats and amateur restorers to muck with???

Is anyone familiar with teacher Carney in mv circles or is this a "first" for him too...???

The "Curator" Col Stu Beaton (ret'd) is ex-air force and is far from knowledgeable on the tank, its rarity, significance, or anything else related to AFVs. Most likely he saw a good PR oportunity and the chance to get the tank painted at no cost to him. Doubtless he factored in that neither the students nor the school had the type of capacity to actually damage the tank - and in my mind he probably wouldn't care even if they did.
The Borden museum is a write-off when it comes to assisting serious researchers and the position of curator is typically offered to retired types who are looking to supplement their pension income.

Clive, what you say about the Borden musuem and it's curator is correct. The alternative is a museum runs by an "artist/historian" with a CBC/revisionist bent. This sentiment dovetails with the Dave Thompson "save medals from collectors" types. Just, to state the obvious, it is collectors, not museums, that study, collect and preserve artifacts. The alternative is professional 'museum-ologists' (a bad thing) or now, high school students. I'll go with the private collector.

Quote:

Originally posted by Bruce Parker
I'll go with the private collector.

Bruce, here is what I said in the 'Acknowledgements' of my first book (damn, I was smart back then);
(Thanks to) "the many individual collectors who are at the forefront of 'artifact history'. Thanks to these private colectors,much of Canada's military heritage is preserved for future generations".

Quote:

V.E. day in Etobicoke

DAVID COOPER/TORONTO STAR
Auto shop teacher Sean Carney squeezes into the driver’s seat of a Sherman Firefly tank delivered to Etobicoke Collegiate Institute on March 28, 2007.

Etobicoke high school students make tracks to welcome the arrival of a World War II tank, which they will help restore

Mar 29, 2007 04:30 AM
Bill Taylor
Feature Writer

Only one high school was celebrating but it was V.E. Day yesterday – Victory in Etobicoke.

The delivery of a World War II Sherman Firefly tank, a combat veteran of the European battlefields, to Etobicoke Collegiate Institute, was a triumph for teacher Sean Carney after a months-long campaign that he was told he couldn't win.

"When I got the idea last September of finding a tank for my students to work on, I contacted the Department of National Defence and the Canadian Forces," said Carney, head of the school's transportation and technical education department. "Everyone said the same thing: `Great idea! We're totally behind you on this. It'll never happen.' Too much red tape, they said."

Then he thought of CFB Borden. Lt.-Col. Stuart Beaton, director of the base museum, who also loved the idea and has half a dozen Shermans. The Firefly is a rarity – fitted with a gun big enough to take on the Germans' best tanks. Before that, Shermans' shells tended to bounce off enemy armour.

Restoring it could take up to five years. About 100 students in grades 9 to 12 will work on the Firefly, which weighs 34 tonnes and has armour-plating five centimetres thick.

As they watched the ticklish, three-hour operation to unload the tank, the kids got an idea of how tough the job will be. The turret weighs about four tonnes.

"We'll have to rent a crane to get it off," said Alex Bihuniak, 16. He's more into muscle cars and hot rods but was beside himself with excitement. "To work on a piece of history like this ... it's mind-boggling. I've only ever seen these in the movies."

Laurie LeFresne, 15, was just as thrilled, even though she's more interested in horses. "Not everyone in this class wants to be a mechanic," she said. "This is so cool, so amazing. I'm so nervous but I can't wait to get started. It's ... a tank. End of story!"

Another girl, overhearing, said, "Oh, I wish I'd taken this class."

Some Fireflies had five gas engines, others twin diesels. Carney hoped for diesels, as easier to work on, but when he visited Borden this week and opened the engine compartment all he found was a pop can.

"When they came back from Europe, a lot of their engines were sold as generators," said Beaton. "We'll look at my other tanks for replacements."

Carney said he's also seeking tank veterans as advisers. "And we need financial support."

Scott-Woods Transport donated a tractor-trailer and a second truck to get the tank on and off the flatbed. President Mark Alden is another enthusiast.

"We've moved tanks quite a bit for museums," Alden said. "This is business as usual for us."

Where does a 34-tonne tank sleep? Anywhere it'll fit. The Firefly was shoehorned into a tech shop bay, but only after the machinegun mounting on the turret was removed. The truck's wheels spun – "burnout!" the students yelled – as it pulled the tank on to the asphalt. Carney, who owns a vintage Corvette, had stuffed himself into the driver's compartment to work the levers that brake the left and right caterpillar tracks for steering. "I can't imagine going into battle in this thing," he said.

"I couldn't even fit in there," said history teacher Bob Smale, who will be basing some of his lessons around the tank.

"I'm hoping we can find some serial numbers to help us figure out where it fought," Smale said. "The kids love this. But they've got to respect it, too. If they don't, then they don't get the privilege of working on it."

A woman crossing the street said to no one in particular, "Is Etobicoke going to war?"

Even Carney's dad, Brian, showed up. "As a 10-year-old, Sean thought they'd be wonderful for blowing things up."

Carney laughed. "When I was a kid, I used to climb around on any tank you'd see parked as a monument. It's what got me into military history."

Tanks ... for the memories.

Source: http://www.thestar.com:80/News/article/197208

Quote:

Originally posted by Bruce Parker
(looks more like a Grizzly than a Sherman to me)

It is in fact, a Grizzly fitted with a Firefly turret. This turret was received from the UK, probably during the winter of 1943/44. Since it will now be restored, it would be an excellent time to check it is was actually fully converted with full ammunition stowage for the 17-pdr., or whether the turret was merely bolted to a Grizzly hull.

There are no indications Grizzly Shop No. 65 ever left Canada, so the claim "a combat veteran of the European battlefields" is a bit hollow.

H.

Etobicoke School Tank

The tank , taken with much fanfare, from Borden, to be restored in Etobicoke

is back in Camp Borden, missing many parts including a complete top

hatch. Apparently school dances will not finance a Tank restoration

and some involement in a big way is necessary to complete the job.

It's on the corner just west of the Museum, repainted an odd green

with the name Radley Walters stencilled on it.

Peter S

The road to Hell is paved with good intentions. I am sorry to see the project fell apart, but give them credit for trying.

Borden 'Frizzly' status?

Does anyone know if any historical data was uncovered (& reported) while the Firefly/Grizzly was off being 'restored'? Stuff like original census number, interior fitting changes to 17-pdr. or any proof at all that it was ever a runner with the Firefly turret. For that matter, are there any photos or documents to show that the combination existed before Worthy's passing? One theory is that a Firefly should definitely be on permanent display at Worthington Park and this was as close as we could get to the real thing. Can anyone shed further light?
Cheers & thanks, Dave

Hi Dave,the Grizzly is back home in Borden, went home this summer , sitting on a corner near the museum, as was expected no restoration work done by the high school , just some minor damage to the rear sand shield brackets when they moved it into the school using a backhoe,I hope no parts went missing, someone I spoke to from the armoured corp association was very proud that they had paid to have some of the vehicles sandblasted and painted gloss pea green , sorry but all the history on these vehicles is gone , to find anything someone will need to go into whatever photo files there may be to find photos of these vehicles , as far as I know there is no crossover file of the serial to cencus numbers for these vehicles, on the up side there will shortly be another running M4A2E8 in Ontario, and work is started on a additional Sexton , please note many interior parts are needed for this project,hope someone has some bits and can help,
regards Frank

Further to Peter's comments, the top hatch was long gone before it got to the school , all that was there was a round steel plate , no engine but mostly complete interior that needed a good sand blast and paint, exterior was pea green before it went to the school, the teacher was never even willing to invest any of his own money in the purchase of books for the vehicle, just goes to show that if we the private collector do not do it no one will, with the exception of a VERY few museums around the world,

tank non restoration

Just a footnote to this story- I had a good clean, used running engine available for this project ( not mine ) and put them on to it - nothing happened. ( It was later sold stateside ). I told them where they might get a donation engine - nothing happened. Also I think the gate guardian at Bordan (Grizzly ??) still has an R975 in it that could have been robbed/borrowed? But it is a big job and it costs serious money - B.P.