MLU FORUM - 1938 chev prototype

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1938 chev prototype

hi all

while surfing the www i found the attached pic. it was grouped with a bunch of other pictures of the Royal Canadian Dragoons. it's difficult to see the cab, but comparing what i can see to other pictures on file, i think that truck is one of the 1938 chevrolet prototypes. at first the soft top made me think it was a ford proto, but examining the rear body changed my mind. as well, there is at least one other photo of a soft top chev prototype. considering that photos of these pre- cmp trucks are few and far between, i figured you would enjoy seeing it.

making things even more interesting is the fact that according to the research of David Hayward, four of these chevrolets were assigned to B SQUAD, R.C.D. in Toronto and carried the war dept numbers Z38-1-6, -8, -7, AND -5. too bad we can't positively identify it.

:cheers: mike

I think you must be right, and it's not one of the 50 1940 Model G/S Fords. I have of course chapter and verse on the trials and tribulations of the Chevrolets. Without checking I recall that there were two tops...hard and soft. Where did the photo come form please as I would love to add it to my collection?

hello david

you are correct to their being both hard and soft top's on these trucks. i think there are pics on colin stevens' website showing both versions. the cwm has a 1937 ford prototype, and a hard top 1938 chev. i'm not aware of any surviving 1940 ford g/s which you mentioned, but hopefull one will turn up eventually. i found this pic at the following link.

http://www.army.dnd.ca/RCD/rcd/galle...worldwar_e.htm

thanks, and cheers!!

mike

If the "1937" is the ex-Dr Gregg one or the Gary Moonie one, then they are two of the 50 1940 G/S 15-cwt G/S trucks. The 1937 trucks were of course Ford and Chev, the Ford being in Dr Gregg's book.

Here's some information for you:

Quote:

Finally, the doors would not operate with the Summer Top because of lack of rigidity of the back of the cab when the bracing effect of the metal top was removed. This back appeared to slant forward and prevent the doors from opening and closing. The query was that whether it was intended that the doors should not be used with Summer Tops, and if so where should numbering and lettering of trucks be painted [they were painted on the doors!]. Caldwell replied [with a copy to the DCE & ME] that the points raised were under consideration. ..... temporarily doors could be removed when canvas tops [Summer Tops] were in use and marking should be postponed pending instructions.

Quote:

Deputy Minister LaFleche had asked for Blueprints of the construction of the ‘summer top’, comprising canvas cover, stays, windscreen and cab attachments, and these were supplied on 21 July [1938]

Quote:

The variance in prices can be explained in one respect: some trucks were not delivered with canvas tops despite the belief that the specifications called for one top per truck. If the District Officer in Charge wished to do so, no doubt the Ordnance could make a cover locally

This from a Memo of October 1938...so not all trucks had the canvas tops.

According to STEEL CHARIOTS:

Quote:

In 1934, Ford and General Motors were each invited to build an experimental armoured car to undergo testing by the Permanent Force. The deal involved the government paying for the materials and chassis while the companies paid for the design work and assembly. In the end the government paid $2,500.00 compared to Ford and GM of Canada who each paid $9,000.00 to build their respective cars. The Ford differed from the Chevrolet in that it had dual wheels on the second and third axles, a V-8 gasoline engine as against the Chevrolet 6-cylinder, and the armour plating was welded rather than riveted and bolted. Both armoured cars had a maximum speed of 30 mph, and the Ford was able to do 8 m.p.h. in reverse. The Ford was registered in Ontario with 822 C and the Chevrolet 830 C. It was intended that each of the vehicles would be armed with the Vickers Mk. VI medium machine gun but these were delayed as the feed mechanisms were on the wrong side, having been originally designed by the British for right hand drive vehicles. The cars underwent testing at Camp Petawawa, Ontario with the Royal Canadian Dragoons where it was found that both performed satisfactorily. The ten-wheel Ford performed the best in off-road tests and the six-wheel Chevrolet excelled on roads. Orders for further cars failed to materialise because of budgetary limitations and the Ford experimental Armoured Car was shipped to Winnipeg, Manitoba for use by the Lord Strathcona’s Horse. The Chevrolet remained with the RCD Other than the handful of Carden-Loyd carriers obtained in 1931 these two armoured cars were the only armoured vehicle procurements by the PF until the acquisition of two British Vickers Mk. VI B Light Tanks in 1938.

hi david

thank you for correcting me. for some reason i thought the ford at the cwm was the earlier type ford, which was complete in late 1937, no doors, and soft top. i took a look at the picture i have of it, and indeed, it is the later ford. that being the case, i'm not aware of any of the earlier ford prototypes still in existance. also, thank you for the information from your files.

cheers!!
mike

Not correcting Mike!

Would never dream of correcting anyone...clarifying I would say. The problem is that there have been so many "prototypes" banded about over the years and even Dr Gregg did not give us a definitive answer I feel as to what the '40 Fords were. There is virtully no hard evidence that I found on the 1940 Fords, and it is just mentioned en passant in one file. They were however the direct progenitors of the DND-pattern, later CMP, trucks with subtle differences the most obvious being the hood louvres and the "cycle wing" mudguards. The front end is otherwise the direct descendant. However the Chevrolet front ends had no connection with that adopted for series production. The '38 G/S Chevies had the flat sheet metal front used on the Chevrolet-Scammell FAT, and I confess I can't see what the front end is on the truck in the photo.

..clarifying it is....i understand what you are saying regarding the lack of information and confusion of prototypes. regarding the posted picture, the cab is pretty well obscured, but seeing it would for sure identify it. when i tagged it as a 1938 chevrolet, it was based on comparing what could be seen in the original photo, to other photos. if you look at the rear frame near the lisence plate you will notice that it has been angularily cut facing inwards for example. this was the bracked which held the pintle hitch leaf spring . this detail and a few others look identical to the chevs. i'm hoping someday that more information on these trucks becomes available, but for now the search continues.

:D mike

attached is another pic which i think came from the perth regt website. take note of the line up of trucks in the backround.

here is another which i'm not sure where it came from, but i think it was taken in nova scotia in 1940. again, the truck in the middle, and to the right are of interest.

Just one obversation....

Hi Mike

Looking at your picture....... would it be safe to assume that the tailight is a current era Chevrolet tail light????

Can anyone date the other car in the picture from the rear quarter panel..?

Bob C.

The middle truck in the top photo is definitely a 1938 G/S Chevrolet, and the bottom photo is I believe of the King and Queen's visit to the 1st Division at Aldershot, June 1940.

Photo 1 CZ 4205515

This is the sole, '38 G/S truck that came over in early 1940. It may have been serial # 815312825 D.N.D.# Z 38-1-20 that was issued to B Battery in Kingston, Ontario. This truck was photographed in February 1940 in Delville Barracks, Cove, Hampshire with a broken right headlamp and had Ontario number plates, allocated to The Seaforth Highlanders of Canada, who were brigaded with the PPCLI. Its driver at the time was Private George Kenyon.

This is a 1938 in December 1940, in the custody of the Argyle & Sutherland Highlanders.

Self-explanatory. Military District No 4 were at:
3 Hillside Avenue, Westmount, P. Quebec.

Photo 4: 1940 Ford

This is not brillaint but the only one I have of a rear view of a Ford G/S.

hi bob

my understanding of the materials used in the prototypes is that current production commercial components were utilized as much as possible. i googled a pic of a civi 1938 chevrolet truck and the tail lights were of the same shape and size as best i can tell. one thing that may have been different is the composite lens for military use and black out service, but i'm not sure if at this early stage, blackout would have been considered. as for the other car...i have no idea.

:cheers: mike

This is a 1940 line-up of # 11 cab Fords and '40 Fords.

photo 3/gary moonie

hi david

photo 3 is the one i compared the dragoons photo with to identify it. it's probably the clearest pics of the rear of the chev that has come to light. you mentioned gary moonie as featured in blueprint for victory.....did he complete restoration of his prototype, and are there any more photo's of it?

cheers!!
mike

Does anyone know please about Mr Moonie's truck?

after a closer read of colin's site, the cwm has one of the 1938 chevrolet g/s trucks, two of the 1940 ford prototypes, one restored, one in dire need, and there is the gary moonie 1940 ford, for a total of three known fords in existance.

I've got a photo from the CWM at my request of the '38 that they have. This is a shot from somewhere!

Pre-production DND pattern vehicles

As David Hayward mentioned the term "protoytpe has been bandied about too liberally. I feel prototype is the first one made. Then when limited batches were made those are either pilot or pre-production ... or test vehicles. Maybe someone would like to define the terms for us.

For many more photos of these early DND test vehicles see:
Colin Stevens' page on CMPs

As credentials I'll start off by saying that I have physically touched all three surviving Ford 15 Cwts, the Chevy 15 Cwt and the surviving Ford M-H half-track pre-war test 15 Cwt. Most of the photos in this discussion came through me e.g. the one of the rear of the Ford 15 Cwt is from my Dad's album and he is standing next to the truck. When I told him it was a "prototype" Ford 15 Cwt he laughed - for to him it was just a truck. I pointed out the special hooded headlights.

Picture won't reproduce here but is on my web page on CMPs. I still have the original large print of my Dad's.

Lincoln and Welland Regt on right at Niagara on the Lake 50 Mile March 1941 January 5. Left to right Driver B____; Sgt. Russ Trelford and Lieut. A. H. ("Pete") Stevens. This training is mentioned on p.100 of the History of the Lincoln and Welland Regiment. "On 6th January, six platoons started out independently on three-day schemes in which each was to practice tactics, marching, and the technique of billeting. Six more platoons set out on the 8th.

FORD
Prototype - Pictured in Bill Gregg's book BLUEPRINT FOR VICTORY pp. 6-10 with 1937 Ontario licence plate DEALER 856 M [Note: Licence plates usually changed each year.] This one is NOT known to have survived.

Here are the Ford limited production types. It has been estimated that 6 or 8 were made. Three of these survive.
1. Dr. Bill Gregg's restored, went to the RCA Musuem in CFB Shilo in 1985 (I did the appraisal). I have photos but none on my web site yet.
2. Gary Moonie has one, partly restored in BC. Old photo from Blueprint For Victory.
http://bcoy1cpb.pacdat.net/Ford_prot...ary_Moonie.jpg
3. The Canadian War Museum has one partial one (cab and cowl) in Ottawa. Found by Jim Fraser of Arnprior in the CFB Petawawa area apparently.
http://bcoy1cpb.pacdat.net/Ford_prot...Cwt_at_CWM.jpg

Six of these early Fords are shown at Dundurn Camp c. 1940 (Photo from Museum of the Royal Westminster Regiment)
http://bcoy1cpb.pacdat.net/Prototype_Ford_15_Cwts.jpg

CHEVROLET
http://bcoy1cpb.pacdat.net/Prototype...hev_15_Cwt.jpg Albert Siemons photo.
Hard and soft cab types appear in old photos. I was offered the only known survivor for $1,000 years ago (1990s) by Albert Siemons in Kelowna, BC but I turned it down as I did not have the resources to care for it and felt that it HAD to stay in Canada - so I told the Canadian War Museum about it and they acquired it. As of last November (2006) it was in the CWM restoration shop awaiting attention (in company with a UC 2 Pr Equipped and Panther tank among others. David Hayward was able to trace its history - and as CWM has done nothing with it in a decade -- I kind of wish I had acquired it!

At least one (and probably only 1) went overseas to England with the 1st Canadian Division in late 1939 and it appears in several photos. The Seaforth photo shows the DND number painted on the side of the vehicle hood (bonnet) , foward of the doors and it is Z 38-1-10
http://bcoy1cpb.pacdat.net/Chevrolet...in_UK_1940.jpg I suspect that this is the same truck that shows a partial WD number on the hood in another close-up photo. It would likely have been assigned a WD number.
By the way the photo identified in the forum earlier as being taken in "Nova Scotia" is I believe taken onf 1 Cdn Division in Aldershot ENGLAND (someone probably saw Aldershot and assumed it was the Canadian one). One of the these Chevy trucks shows up in the background of several phttos on parade and a route march.

The Westmintser Regiment used some of these pre-war Fords in B.C. Two show up in their photo (attibuted to another regiment above in this forum) but I got this photo from the Museum of the Westmintser Regt and the licence plates are British Columbia so I think it is them in the photo. I think its extremely likey (the odds are about 1 in 2 or 1 in 6 at the most) that the truck now at CWM is one of the two in this photo. Sadly the DND numbers are not legible in the photo.
http://bcoy1cpb.pacdat.net/Prototype...Regt_in_BC.jpg

1936 Ford M-H HALF-TRACK "JEEP"
One of these survives. Shown in BLUEPRINT FOR VICTORY p. 27, this was found by Phil Gravelle and had DND number 36-1-106. It has now been restored and is on display at the Canadian War Museum, though without the DND number on the side, and without the four 18 Pr. Limber boxes that were used on the rear deck. The RCA called these vehicles "Jeeps" (with a capital J) way back in 1936-37 (I have ample evidence of this - and it is pretty obvious they got the name from the character Jeep in the Popeye cartoon strip who came in a mystery box, could disappear and reappear anywhere.

By the way, do not confuse it with the prototype one of a kind Willys jeep half-track which is owned by Fred Smith near Birmingham, England. I have driven that one as well as most of his other protoytpe and pre-production jeeps and it is neat, but it is a beast to drive!

Then there is the Dodge CMP prototpe ... What's that you say? CMPs were made by Ford and Chevrolet! True, but Dodge made at least 1 protytpe Cab 13 15 Cwt. If you find it it is not a collector's or farmer's abomination so don't "fix" it. Note the DODGE name plate on the top of the grille and the spindly front wheel hubs. I have first dibs on it by the way! My late friend Bill Gregg mentioned it in his books but I found the war time photo! Here it is.
http://bcoy1cpb.pacdat.net/Dodge_CMP_15_Cwt.jpg

One request people - when you find a photo on the Internet etc. record WHERE you got it from! A whole bunch of my photos were used in the forum above, but people could not remember where they had gotten them from!

Enough for tonight ...

:salute:

Colin Stevens, Mission BC

One reason why I like jeeps

http://bcoy1cpb.pacdat.net/IMGP5747.JPG

Why I like jeeps - The tires don't give you a hernia like CMPs can when you have to change a flat. This is one of my jeeps at a car show in New Westmintser last July.

By the way a fellow in the audience came up to me and gave me a free 1943 Ford GPW jeep that had been in his garage for about 35 years!

Oh the girl ... her name is Olga (from Moscow). No, I don't know her
:devil:
She just wanted her photo taken with the jeep and so I gallantly (?) offered to let her sit in the jeep for the photo. Only after gleefully accepting the offer did she remember she was wearing a mini-skirt!

Yes, that Dodge is intriguing. It looks like it was made from a grab bag of Ford and Chev panels and parts - the front shell is Ford whilst the radiator spring bumper is Chev. The assumption is of course it has a Dodge chassis and running gear.

Thanks Colin! The truck at Delville Barracks was assigned the number you can see, CZ 4205515. That pic is the best, and you can see the whole of the Census Number!

As regards the true prototypes, well, for the first time ever I think, I can reveal more information on the two 1937 15-cwt Ford and Chevrolet trucks: the Ford is of course pictured in Dr Gregg's book.

Quote:

The Ford truck was registered as a ‘FORD’, 1937 manufactured [registered with a 1937 Ontario dealer plate, 856-M] Serial Number C-4800, Engine Number C-4800, with a ‘box’ body, single rear wheels, 4300 lb. empty weight and 7,800 lb. Gross Load. The Manufacturer’s Model Number was ‘79’. Note the Ford Series 78 was the 30 h.p. 221 cu. in. capacity L-head V-8, and it assumed that the engine was the 1937 Model truck engine: 1937 30 h.p. car engines/serials started at No. A-1, and the 22 h.p. series D-1.

The Chevrolet truck incidentally had serial number 7151107427 Engine number T88,396 and was a Model 16-40S ‘CHASSIS WITH COWL’, with the ‘S’ suffix denoting ‘Special’ chassis. This requires explanation: the whole truck was a Model 1640, which was a 1½-ton chassis, 131½-in. wheelbase, and the ‘1151’ indicates a combination of the chassis model 1511, and the model 1540 Cowl, without a cab. This standard chassis was then shortened to suit, but although rated at 15-cwt., or ¾-ton, was based on a chassis suitable for double the weight! A note from a Lieutenant R. Henderson confirms my assessment: the chassis and engine were ‘standard 1½ to 2-ton Chevrolet’ with a special War Office pattern GS body. The tyres were balloon type all round and were of the WD type. The Chassis Weight with water, fuel and oil including cab was: Front End: 2,475 lb.; Rear End 1535 lb.; Total 4010 lb. The Chassis Weight as before but with body was 2,500 lb.; 2,260 lb., and 4,760 lb., respectively. Left hand turning circle was 44 feet and the Right hand was 45 feet. Both Ford and Chevrolet trucks were registered in Ontario, by the DND Mechanical Transport department in Ottawa.

They were delivered in August 1937..I have the dates.

Quote:

In practice, the trucks were ordered in two separate contracts, the first was C.D. 689 on 11 March 1938 for 35 trucks, at a Contract Price of C$102,590.47. After that was a further order under Contract Number C.D. 746 on 20 April 1938 for 16 trucks at a contract price of C$46,158.81, to include a 10% profit in each case. So much for the C$1,500 each as projected! Because of the two orders, the trucks were split into two series when built on the production line: Serial Numbers 815312801 to 815312835 inclusive, and then sometime later, Numbers 815314928 to 815314943 inclusive

Numbers Z 38-1-2 to 52 were allocated.

1939-40 Ford G/S trucks

It seems that there were about 40 Ford 1939 or 1940 Model 15-cwt G/S trucks [Model 911W or 011W?], with lhd of course. There is scant evidence about them but they were it seems required for Winnipeg and Petawawa, and GM of Canada considered offering their design but it went to Fords instead.

.....great stuff guy's!! colin mentioned the ford half track/ Jeep at the cwm. attached is a photo of this vehicle which was taken by dana nield at the old vimy house.
:salute: colin..thanks for sharing Olga with us...she is a beaut!!

here is another pic of one in R.C.A.F. service as a fire truck. this pic was found at www.firehouse651.com