Restauring the Citadelle of Quebec BREN Carrier

[Martin Dauphinais]

Hi gents,

I will post pictures of the BREN later. In order to begin the restoration plan I would like to know how was used the BREN carrier during WW1?

Were they given to the units or they were from a different unit in support of the battalions?

We will refresh the paint of the BREN that is sitting inside the walls. I'm fighting hard to have the vehicle restored in working condition. I have few people supporting my idea and some don't. I think I have good arguments but will see what will happen.

Right now, the BREN is painted in grey, which is totally wrong. Also, it appears that the BREN was given to the Citadelle's Museum by the PPCLI. Right from the bat, I would be looking to apply the PPCLI markings but I do not know if the vehicle was owned by them or not. If not, I would love to see what kind of markings we should apply on it.

Are there any CFR on these vehicles and would it be possible to find the life history of this vehicle? If any of you can help me finding the proper markings, it would be good.

Thanks for your input...

[Martin Dauphinais]

Here are the pictures...

[Martin Dauphinais]

More pictures...

[Martin Dauphinais]

Pictures of the interior...

[Martin Dauphinais]

Interior and mechanic...

[Dan Martel]

Well it certainly looks like you have your work cut out for you if you wish to get it in running order. The best of luck to you and your team.

As it's property of the R 22e R Home Station are they putting any money towards the project? Or is it a private venture?

Don't know why it would be grey unless it was some sort of special all-weather coating to survive the winters. When you finish the restoration perhaps you should consider keeping it on display indoors.

Still a good looking machine.

Cheers,
Dan.

[Ed Storey]

Is it grey or a very faded out green? Either way restoring it and then parking it back outside to be destroyed by the elements is throwing good money away. As Dan said, indoor display is the best.

Check with the R22eR museum, they should be best able to tell you how universal carriers were employed by an infantry battalion and provide you with appropriate markings.

[Martin Dauphinais]

Of course, if we restore it back in working condition, it won't stay outside... I'm already upset on how we are treating this vehicle and they know it.

The reason why I asked here is because I know I may find an answer quicker than using the museum's personnel. I will look at the archives but I also have a job to do.

The work is not on a private manner. It is the Museum and the Citadelle Garrison that will take care of it. I really hope to be able to convince them to restore it properly... but it is not easy.

The color is really grey... it was painted grey because they had some gallons left from another job. The BREN is literally consider like a flower pot by many so, it was not important to have the good color and markings. Since I arrived and explained them the importance of having displaying good information, they are more willing to do it correctly. Even our Sherman is in poor condition. This might change very soon.

[Ed Storey]

This is the restoration work of a Universal Carrier by David Good in Alberta and illustrates quite well what can be achieved with hard work, dedication and attention to detail. Something to strive for if your project goes forward.

[rob love]

There were a number of Universal carriers collected by 2VP back in the latter half of the 70s. They wanted one for their parades, which I presently have here in the museum workshop. To save some measure of time, they moved the mk1 armour onto a mk2 hull, and then kind of tossed brackets from either mark wherever it suited them. One of my early Sgts was on that project, and as well there was a scrapbook in the duty center of 2VP showing the collection and repair of the vehicles.

I suspect yours may have been made up of some of the residue after this one was completed. I note some mk2 stuff on it, although the hull appears to be mk1. It does appear to be an uncut hull though.

I recall seeing 2 or 3 more hulls in the 3VP compound in the early 80s, which suddenly disappeared, I suspect as scrap.


Dave Good's carrier was, at one time, mine. It was one of the ones buried in a marsh bank about an hour from here......I started on the project but then sold it off as part of the liquidation of my hobbies in order to fund a divorce.

[Jason Ginn]

Hi Martin!

I'll try and answer your questions.

If you are looking for the War Department Census number it will be on the vertical armour plate in front of the driver. Stamped into the top edge. See the image from the manual for details. Thus is the wartime version of the CFR. The specific wartime history of the carrier will unfortunately elusive but with the numbers you can find some of the appropriate markings. With Robs valuable 1970's/80's history it's pretty certain that the carrier never left Canada during the war but it might be worth an email to the PPCLI just to be certain morso just for due diligence.

For generic wartime PPCLI I don't have them on my phone but I'm sure I could dig something up for you.

If the R22R "owns" the carrier and hesitates about maintaining it don't be afraid to keep DND DDSAL and DHH in the loop. They control many of the monuments on and off of bases that aren't specifically owned by associations or national museums. If there is a lack of apatite to maintain it I'm sure other Units or DND museums would be anxious to preserve it.

If you are looking for durable outdoor coatings there are many on the market that will protect the steel if applied properly. For the most appropriate course of action for immediate outdoor preservation I suggest you contact the Canadian Conservation Institute in Ottawa. They are a federal government asset that is mandated to provide guidance in this exact type of preservation situation. They have approved lists of coatings that will protect the steel and to a certain extent rubber components.

I would love to see another carrier running but I honestly would be just as happy if you could keep it displayed maintained and stable until a long-term goal of full restoration could be fulfilled.

[rob love]

We have a mk2 in the collection that has been badged to PPCLI markings from Italy. My own carrier was also badged to them from when I loaned it for their change of command parade a couple years back.

The carrier at the citadel, as Jason has mentioned, was most likely a domestic carrier recovered in either Manitoba or Saskatchewan. As such, the CT number on the front armour would not have been used on the carrier but rather either the early or later DND numbers. The Ford of Canada plate on the division plate would indicate the carrier is post 43, so would have had a DND number in the format of 50-001 or higher. Careful sanding around the sides of the armour might well reveal the numbers if the vehicle has not been sandblasted. Occasionally there were unit markings, but just as often there were not.

[Darrell Zinck]

Hi Martin

There is a Carrier outside Sigs Platoon inside the building in Edmonton for 1 PPCLI in Edmonton. I cannot find a picture of it but think it is grey also. Maybe contact them?

Could be a continuation of the Borden vehicles being painted grey a number of years ago?

Or.....the Division is 3rd and their patch is.....French Grey!!!

Good luck.

regards
Darrell

[Martin Dauphinais]

You guys are awesome! Again, a lot of information. I will keep you posted about this project. It could go forward if nothing more important is coming in my way. Will try to get some scanned pictures from the archives and will post them here also.

Have a good one gents!

[Michael R.]

Good armour bones to start with ... How does it look under the engine covers?

How often do we see the MK-I* with the single POL rack in the rear compartment, gunner side, over the track guard? So far, one other in the MK-I* located at the Ditsong Museum, J'burg, South Africa.