CMP Umbau-Wagen

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Moderator's note: this thread was split off from CMPs first used in action: June 1940, France

Originally posted by David_Hayward
The F15s may have ended up at the Ford, Antwerp plant for refurbishment and conversion.

David,

With the numbers captured, it is likely they were indeed refurbished and converted by coachbuilders, car or truck manufacturers.
I could only find some pictures on the internet of a scale model kit of a 15-cwt CMP Kübel. If anything, they help to show how a Kübelwagen body (built along a largely standardised design) was fitted to captured chassis like the F15.

Hanno


Picture source: http://www.tracks-n-troops.com/Wespe.htm

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

..I have to say that they would indeed have been rebuilt. There is ample evidence that huge contracts were placed for Austin, Morris-Commercial, Ford, Bedford, etc. captured vehicles to be rebuilt in former auto factories from Antwerp down to Poissy, especially in Antwerp...Ford and GM. Fords were allocated to Amsterdam, Antwerp and the Ford France facility. GM Rotterdam was I believe used as well as Antwerp, plus the GM Paris area plants.

Question for anyone...what happened to Chryslers in Antwerp as I have seen nothing so far?

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

Originally posted by Rolf S. Ask in CMPs first used in action: June 1940, France
And regadring vehicles. Would it be unlikly to assume that the Germans also used F15A's, C15 and C15A with the same bodywork?? We know of those who went to Russia (F15's). But since there were such big losses of vehicles would it be likely that many of them were rebuilt, wouldn't it??

And is there any chances of seeing such a bodywork from the rear??

And David is there any records abouth CMD numbers? Guess I have asked you before, but I have a C60S cab # 12 with CMD number 60204. Any idea where and to whom it went?

I would have thought that there was a standard Umbau body that fitted all and was modified to suit chassis. That said there were different types of Umbau...personnel carriers, cargo, etc. We know that thousands of captured/sequestred vehicles were used on the Russian front and these were prepared in the various former assembly plants that we have already discussed. We also know that Ford in Antwerp built new 1943 Ford V3000 style trucks to the same basic design as Ford Koln/Cologne. I cannot believe that given the desperate vehicle shortage after the onset of winter in 1941 that the Germans did not use the various plants to rebuild war-weary captured vehicles. The Ministry of Supply set up a rebuild programme from late 1941 and General Motors Limited had a huge undertaking that spilt into two facilities to provide the facilities required. I seem to remember that Opel in Russelsheim undertook rebuilds in addition to new build, and of course Mercedes-Benz produced their own version of the Blitz truck under licence.

As to the CMD number...Rolf where WAS the number found? I assume on the side of the hood? Underneath paint? The CMD number was allocated to new-build Canadian order trucks even if US sourced when assembled in the UK. This was a sort of census number, namely a sequential number that started probably with CMD 1 but may have started with # CMD 1001, at the Southampton Canadian Mechanization Depot. I know that # C.M.D. 3269 was a 1940 Chevrolet sedan that was destroyed in the 30 November 1940 attack. That makes me think that the starting number was CMD 1. What we do know is that when Slough started Ford production again in December 1940 the first off the line was # CMD 15001..a big jump up. An early Canadian order Jeep has # CMD 26914, and that was assembled in Slough. I have a photo of it next to a # 12 F60S, with a CMD # that is unreadable but could be 38495. In addition we know that Tom Garner Limited of Manchester assembled CMPs..there is a photo of a park full of trucks in Wheels & Tracks. One has a # cMD 62774??? number but they are # 13 Cabs.

I believe that the truck may have been assembled by LEP Transport Limited at Chiswick, London W.4 but it could have been assembled at one of a number of facilities around England and Scotland. It is just that LEP assembled more Chevrolets than anyone else, whereas Citroen Cars/CMD Slough handled Fords.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by Hanno Spoelstra
If anything, they help to show how a Kübelwagen body (built along a largely standardised design) was fitted to captured chassis like the F15.

I just looked up the article "The Wehrmacht's Umbau-Wagen" (Wheels & Tracks issue No. 30, p.20-27) in which Bart Vanderveen mentions:

The first category Umbau-Wagen, the sophisticated Kfz. 15 (and similar roles) or Kübel-type car bodies on foreign military chassis which had been abandoned mainly in France and the Western Desert, all in the period of 1939-42.
Canadian chassis used for similar conversions probably originated predominantly from Greece; some of them (e.g. WH-449955, on F15 chassis) saw service in Russia. Like the German originals, these models all had the pioneer tools on the sides of the rear locker. Later, when additional jerricans were carried on the sides, shovel and pickaxe were moved to the rear.

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

I am in three minds [not two!] still as to whether any of the F15 Umbauwagen were built from the Canadian trucks that were abandoned in France? Other than that they could have included some S/M 2002 British orders that were seized in N Africa.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by Rolf S. Ask
And is there any chances of seeing such a bodywork from the rear??

The picture above and the one below are the only ones I have seen of CMP Umbau-Wagen with Kübel bodywork. Note how the original cab doors and rear cab wall were retained. This is a deviation from the standard Kfz. 15 bodywork, which normally runs from the cowl backwards and on which the doors have slanted rear edges. I suspect the rear locker is the same, though.
So "all" you need is to find drawings for the rear Kfz. 15 body, a F15 chassis/cab and make the rest up as you go along. Hey presto! A CMP Umbau-Wagen!

[Rolf S. Ask]

but still in my head. Will be measuring and copying other german cars to make a replica body. Guess the rear body of the Umbau are looking pretty much the same as other german cars og ther categorty.
Have a very good chassis but it is of a C15A.
Give me a few Years and I guess I'll have one Umbau....
BTW What is the german for "Left overs"? Would be a nice nickname on an Umbau I think

Rolf

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by Rolf S. Ask
Will be measuring and copying other german cars to make a replica body. Guess the rear body of the Umbau are looking pretty much the same as other german cars og ther categorty.

Rolf, the Kfz 15 was the mittlerer geländegängiger Personenkraftwagen mit Zughaken or "medium cross-country passenger car with towing hook", part of a whole line of vehicles built along the same design by Auto-Union and Adam Opel AG (see PKW, LKW und Kräder der Wehrmacht for more details). Although the body on the "Beute Ford Kanada" was apparently not exactly the same, with the extensive interest in German vehicles, it should not be too difficult to come up with enough details and drawings to reconstruct one.

BTW What is the german for "Left overs"? Would be a nice nickname on an Umbau I think

How does der Überrest sound to you?

H.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by David_Hayward
I am in three minds [not two!] still as to whether any of the F15 Umbauwagen were built from the Canadian trucks that were abandoned in France? Other than that they could have included some S/M 2002 British orders that were seized in N Africa.

David, with the numbers of F15's captured in France - ranging from 50 to 200 - the Germans must have been able to rebuild a sizeable number of them, probably with Kübel-type car bodies as shown in the picture earlier. Many must have gone to Russia.
As far as I can tell, the vehicles used in North Africa were captured locally and used in "as-found" condition (see Captured F15 image). Am looking into this and will get back on this subject.

H.

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

Hanno, do't forget please that there is no evidence that suggests that any more than the 50 Ford F15s that were taken to France in June 1940 were wasted in this way. I say 'wasted' because these vehicles were urgently required by the Canadian forces and represented the first output of the CMD in Southampton; yet they were sent to France and were lost. I have no evidence that any C15s went to France although they were issued to the Canadian forces. This is from my thesis. Basically there were two batches of CKD 15-cwt 4 x 2 trucks, 175 units x 2 being F15 and C15 chassis with one being built-up as a 'pattern'.

We now know that the first Canadian forces’ deliveries of Southampton-assembled trucks was of eight 15-cwt. Trucks, noted in an official Report dated the week ending 18 May 1940 and the succeeding week’s report noted that 344 15-cwt. Trucks had been delivered to date. ....It is also now known that the first issues of Southampton-assembled trucks to Canadian units were made in early June 1940, including those sent to and destroyed in France [at least 50]. Detailed study of photographs suggests that issues were from the 174 C.K.D. Ford F.15 deliveries and deducting these from the 344 supplied suggests that the total included the 174 Chevrolet C.15 C.K.D. trucks..

See Report 046 for the original information.http://www.forces.gc.ca/hr/dhh/histo...hq_e.asp?cat=1

I am still uncertain as to whether any N African-captured CMPs would have been shipped back for conversion to Umbau-Wagen or whether they were rebuilt locally. I just cannot see why the Wehrmacht would have done so! We know that GM and Ford in Antwerp, plus Ford in Amsterdam and Poissy had initially large 'contracts' to refurbish thousands of ex-BEF vehicles and engines. This was in anticipation of the invasion of the Soviet Union. There would surely have not been the capacity to take on any ex-North African captured vehicles? The refurb programme as it transpired was hopelessly over-optimistic but there were thousands of Chevrolets used by the Germans in the invasion nevertheless.

Can I stick my neck up above the parapet and suggest that there were at most 50 F15 Umbau-Wagen therefore at least initially? It occurred to me that CMPs assembled in Alexandria could have been sent to Greece! That would certainly explain why there were more captured and then converted. Regrettably I have little knowledge of the Greek campaign. Bart Vanderveen published a photo supposedly in Athens in WHEELS & TRACKS of Chevrolet WA trucks, with Egypt-style WD numbers being driven by British Army personnel but does not date the photo...1941 or 1944/5?

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by Hanno Spoelstra
I just looked up the article "The Wehrmacht's Umbau-Wagen" (Wheels & Tracks issue No. 30, p.20-27) in which Bart Vanderveen mentions: "Canadian chassis used for similar conversions probably originated predominantly from Greece; some of them (e.g. WH-449955, on F15 chassis) saw service in Russia."

The "Reader's Forum" in W&T issue 32 featured the following interesting tidbit:

The article about the Wehrmacht's Umbau-Wagen (W&T 30) brought an interesting reaction from Herr Reinhard Frank in Bavaria, who sent me a picture of a line-up of the Kfz. 15 cars on CMP F15 chassis, plus some original drawings of the conversion, which was apparently executed in Athens in late 1941 by the Pi.Btl.666 (666 Engineers Battalion) for Pi.Btl.659 who took them to Russia. 15 were converted and they were known as 'Kfz. 15 (Behelf) (Ford V8 1,5 to engl.)' which translates roughly as makeshift Kfz. 15 on chassis of British 1.5-ton (sic) Ford V8 chassis. Not surprisingly, these troops also used the original F15, in GS truck form; it would appear that they captured quite a few of them during the actions in Greece. Herr Frank even sent us a copy of a letter dated October 3, 1941, in which one Generalmajor Meise expresses his appreciation of the 'Kfz. V8' into 'behelfsmässige Kfz. 15'. He also enclosed a number of copies of typical soldiers' snapshots showing German and foreign-origin vehicles, which we very much appreciate.

The above seems to indicate drawings were made up so local Engineers workshops could carry out the conversions, rather than having the trucks transported to factories or coach builders for conversion.

The picture printed in W&T goes attached:

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Does anybody have any idea where the Germans could have captured a 1940 Ford/Marmon-Herrington ½-ton 4x4 chassis?

W&T 31, p.2:

The Wehrmacht's Umbauwagen article also brought reactions. Some excellent shots of Wehrmacht photographer's origin included Morris-Commercial PU- and CS8-based Kübels and this example on a 1940 Ford/Marmon-Herrington 4x4 chassis used by the Luftwaffe 'somewhere in Europe' (or North Africa?). Other views show that with the exception of a rather crude windscreen (possibly a retrofit) it was a well-proportioned and good-looking car, with full-length running boards, but no Notek BO driving lamp. It's the ½-ton Ford Commercial type, Model 01C, with car style front end and left-hand drive, but we can't tell what and whose it was prior to capture and conversion. Comments are invited.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by David_Hayward
I am still uncertain as to whether any N African-captured CMPs would have been shipped back for conversion to Umbau-Wagen or whether they were rebuilt locally. I just cannot see why the Wehrmacht would have done so! We know that GM and Ford in Antwerp, plus Ford in Amsterdam and Poissy had initially large 'contracts' to refurbish thousands of ex-BEF vehicles and engines. This was in anticipation of the invasion of the Soviet Union. There would surely have not been the capacity to take on any ex-North African captured vehicles? The refurb programme as it transpired was hopelessly over-optimistic but there were thousands of Chevrolets used by the Germans in the invasion nevertheless.

Paul Hocking, connoisseur extraordinare and restorer of German military vehicles published a series of articles on German usage of captured vehicles in the MVT's Windscreen magazine. The series was titled "German WWII Beute-Fahrzeuge and Umbau-Wagen (Britisch)" and appeared in issues 90, 91 and 92 (Spring, Summer and Autumn 2001) with various additional bits and pieces following on in other issues.
Although he admits he lacks detailed understanding of Canadian vehicles (when he talks of CMPs, he is solely thinking about "monkey cabin" vehicles, not realising that all Canadian vehicles were called CMP including some in France in 1940), my discussions with him have given me good insights on the subject. For your reference, I have freely quoted from his e-mails below:

One can basically split German ownership of captured vehicles into two categories. The category I and II titles that I use to describe the two main levels of German activity with captured vehicles are of my own invention. The Germans of course used their own words:
- Beute-Fahrzeuge, "booty" or "loot" vehicle, pretty much my Category I: where the vehicles have been literally picked up of the battlefield, maybe some crosses applied, are immediately reused and very likely discarded again within a short time;
- also Cat II and Umbau-Wagen, "rebuilt" vehicle, my Category II: where captured vehicles are properly incorporated into the German forces, this usually includes a full overhaul and repaint to German colours, the Notek light system added, WH, WL, WM or SS registration added with either the body left as it was, partly modified or fully modified from the scuttle rearwards. Most likely German service and parts books were issued for these vehicles. Category II work needs sufficient quantities to make it worthwhile and plenty of time to accomplish.
The only photos of Category II vehicles that I have are all in the Windscreen Magazine Issue 90, page 56, which shows Canadian C15 GS trucks, some have small body mods and some have major conversions.

Category I was very common especially in North Africa where due to the back and fore nature of the fighting many vehicles changed hands, but I have no known instances so far of Category II occurring in Africa.
The only other instance where quantities were captured is at the end of the 1941 Balkan campaign, Category II work was definitely applied to groups of identical vehicles. I have no idea of quantities of Canadian origin vehicles captured at the end of the Balkan fighting. Obviously it cannot be that many as were they newly issued vehicles about that time.
I am not aware of any other instances where the Germans managed to capture quantities of Canadian vehicles for either Category I or II applications. After all The opportunities were simply not there, you need to be advancing in most instances in order to acquire vehicles, retreating armies naturally capture very little of their opponents equipment.

Since the Windscreen article I not have acquired any more photos showing Category II Canadian vehicles, but Richard Notton has some new Category I vehicles photos, North Africa I believe.

No doubt you have the other photo of re-captured Canadian trucks in North Africa, that is in Windscreen Issue 92, page 61, all appear to be Category I vehicles, although I believe I can see a front Notek lamp on the fourth vehicle from the front. However Notek lamp sets were commonly available for retrospective fitting to any vehicle, therefore this by itself is not an indicator of a Category II vehicle.

Regarding North Africa, the deliberate sending of Cat II softskin vehicles to this area is very unlikely, as far as I can tell captured vehicles were simply issued to any unit as required, and Cat II, being now considered to be "proper" German vehicles, would have been issued via their normal German distribution depot system etc., and if their unit happened to be going to NA then the captured vehicles went there also, however as 95% of the German Army went into Russia in 1941/2, that is where most if not all these vehicles went. This is very much supported by photographic evidence from Russia.

Likewise when the Germans left Tunisia in 1943 it is very unlikely that they managed to ship over to mainland Europe any captured softskin vehicles, after all, they brought back virtually no hardware at all, mostly it was key personnel only, and airlifted back to Europe.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by Hanno Spoelstra
The article about the Wehrmacht's Umbau-Wagen (W&T 30) brought an interesting reaction from Herr Reinhard Frank in Bavaria, who sent me a picture of a line-up of the Kfz. 15 cars on CMP F15 chassis, plus some original drawings of the conversion, which was apparently executed in Athens in late 1941

It appears Herr Frank knows what he's talking about, as he has written a number of books on German military vehicles like Lastkraftwagen der Wehrmacht, Personenkraftwagen der Wehrmacht and Zugkraftwagen der Wehrmacht. Might be worth tracking him down through his publisher and ask him what he can tell us about the subject.

H.

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

My first answer that came to mind of the 1940 M-H was a captured Dutch or Belgian truck. Not knowing very much about the forces of the Low Countries, I have to defer to those who know much more than I!

As regards the captured CMPs in Greece, this makes a lot of sense to me given the apparent use of Chevrolets from Egypt in Greece. The assembly of F15 Alpha Packs in Alexandria is well documented, and their use by the various Commonwealth forces in the Balkans makes sense.

[Bill Murray]

Hanno:
Is it possible for you to scan and post (or email to me) the articles in Windscreen Magazine referenced above.
TIA
Bill

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by Bill Murray
Is it possible for you to scan and post (or email to me) the articles in Windscreen Magazine referenced above.

Bill, I wish I could - but I don't have them! Am asking around, if I get them I'll post here.

H.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by Hanno Spoelstra
The article about the Wehrmacht's Umbau-Wagen (W&T 30) brought an interesting reaction from Herr Reinhard Frank in Bavaria, who sent me a picture of a line-up of the Kfz. 15 cars on CMP F15 chassis, plus some original drawings of the conversion, which was apparently executed in Athens in late 1941 by the Pi.Btl.666 (666 Engineers Battalion) for Pi.Btl.659 who took them to Russia.

I recently found out the original drawings of the conversion are featured in Reinhard Frank's book Ford im Kriege. LKW -Maultier- PKW (Waffen Arsenal, n°123, Vienne, Friedberg, 1990).
This body must have been a local conversion, only loosely modelled on the Kfz.15, contrary the body on the Bedford and Morris-Commercial Umbau-Wagen which are almost exact copies of typical German Kübel bodies. Instead of the typical steel triangular doors as found on the Stoewer, the 'Kfz. 15 (Behelf) (Ford V8 1,5 to engl.)' has square doors and bench seats, both very non-German. Interestingly, the rear body with its slanted back reminds us of the Quad Gun Tractor body.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

The top view shows that the F15's cab was retained (albeit without roof, which could be easily unbolted), and the body from behind the front doors was fabricated. Again this is different from the typical German Kübel body which was a full body from the cowl rearward.
I reckon the body was a wooden frame with steel sheeting construction.

The Gepäckraum (cargo compartment) was used to carry 1 kl. Floss-Sack (1 small rubber dinghy), befitting its use by a Pionier-Battaillon (pioneer battalion).

[Rolf S. Ask]

Found these two photos on e-bay.
The first one I did not reach up on on the price, but have put in a fearly high bid on the second photo. Hopefully I get this photo!!
So if no one else here on the forum makes a bid and I get it, it will be shared in high resolution to those needing it...
And the fram just stand outside my garage would just love such a body....

Rolf

[Rolf S. Ask]

What do you all think, is it beeing to expensive when it passes 30 euros??? (it is ap. 40 US$ I think)
I was just renewing by bid, at 30 euros, and someone bid higher.
The auction stops in little more than one houre...
Any comments?

I really would love the picture, but not for any costs...

Rolf

[Bill Murray]

I can only answer for myself, Rolf, and I would say yes 30 Euros plus would be out of my range too.
I guess it all depends on why you want the photo. For me I only add it to my reference photo file as "another photo or another eample" of something that interests me.

For you and others who actually own a vehicle that appears on Ebayde or other sites or who are hard core "genuine article" photo collectors I guess it would be worth a lot more than I would pay. Actually, I pinch most of my stuff from Ebay and just accept the quality of the image as it is. Helps me to try to improve my photo editing skills

BTW, that was an awfully good photo and I got it myself also.
Cheers
Bill

[Rolf S. Ask]

Bill, it is a little out of my range too.
I wanted the photo becasue as you say, I have some CMP's and would like to make one umbauwagen out of one of them.
And guess I will have to live with the quality as is...

So I give it up, anyone interessted to bid.. go ahead..

Rolf

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by Rolf S. Ask
What do you all think, is it beeing to expensive when it passes 30 euros??? (it is ap. 40 US$ I think)
I was just renewing by bid, at 30 euros, and someone bid higher.
The auction stops in little more than one houre...

Rolf, half an hour to go and the bid stands at EUR 30.50. The current bidder went from €3 to €30.50, and I don't think he will stop at €35 or so (he paid €115.03 for another picture!). Apparently he simply wants to have it, no matter what it costs. If I were you I'd stop. The scan that's on eBay right now is good enough for me. Thanks for finding these pictures, by the way!

H.

[Rolf S. Ask]

the buyier soon is out of money...
or that he will share it in high res with us

Rolf

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by Rolf S. Ask
Found these two photos on e-bay.

Foto Technik Pkw Beute englisch Wh Soldaten 2Wk Item number: 6187175376 sold for EUR 30.50 to sdkfz92,
Foto Technik Pkw Beute englisch ?? Soldaten Item number: 6185919681 sold for EUR 73.06 to sudek13.
Well over €100, milantik2004 did well on these two photos!

H.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Another picture, found on the Axis History Forum. Writing on the back suggests this vehicle was left behind in Russia in 1943.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by Hanno Spoelstra
The article about the Wehrmacht's Umbau-Wagen (W&T 30) brought an interesting reaction from Herr Reinhard Frank in Bavaria, who sent me a picture of a line-up of the Kfz. 15 cars on CMP F15 chassis, plus some original drawings of the conversion, which was apparently executed in Athens in late 1941 by the Pi.Btl.666 (666 Engineers Battalion) for Pi.Btl.659 who took them to Russia.

8 May 1941: CMP Cab 11, captured by the Germans, on its way to Athens - where it was converted into a 'Kfz. 15 (Behelf) (Ford V8 1,5 to engl.)' later that year?!?

H.


Linked from As good as new...

[dirkM4a4]

Hello Hanno,

The Ford Marmon Herrington 4x4 could be of Belgian origin. The Belgian Army used them in 1940 as off road staff cars and i believe even to pull antitank canons. But i've to check that.

Cheers,

Dirk

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

Sounds as though these were late S/M 2002 F15s assembled in Alexandria, sent to Greece then captured. Then sent to the Russian Front amd the cold!