English Mk1 questions

[McDell Bros]

Gidday all,
We have recently bought an English built Mk1 UC and are well under way with the restoration. Unfortunatly the front armour with the serial numbers on it is gone. We have searched in the other two places for any numbers, both angle irons are clean and original but no numbers are present, any ideas as to the lack of numbers? Many parts are dated either 1940 or 1941 and all usual TL numbers are present. We have looked at several other Canadian & English examples and noticed that they all have the striking or chisel like marks all over the armour, what is its purpose and should it be present on all carriers? Ours has no such marks anywhere. thanks for any help,
Chris

[alleramilitaria]

hi
the chisal marks are the armor plate treatment. the carriers down under didnt have armor plate so you will find a .38 cal proof mark on the carrier someplace on a NZ or Ausi carrier.
thanks
dave

[Pedr]

Dave is correct that Aust/NZ carriers were "proofed" with a .303 cal. bullet (.308 is post war here ( i.e. 7.62mm )), however these guys have an English built carrier.

Australian carriers and the NZ manufactured models all used ABP3 armour plate. This process was performed locally and basically was achieved by removing the nickel from the steel plate then quelching at the correct point. This would increase the hardness and remove the malleability of the plate making it more difficult ( but not impossible ) for small arms and shrapnel to penetrate the hull. So our carriers too were armoured, but to prove this when the steel plate arrived at the various manufacturers, plates were lined up in some out of the way place and an apprentice would shoot at it with a .303. No hole through it = bullet proof, hole = mild steel, so it was sent back for a refund.

Simple really.

As for the chisel marks, have noticed them myself, but not know the where's or why's of it.

Pedr

[David Ellery]

Gidday guys, I asked the same Question some time back regarding a Canadian Carrier that came from the same place your machines at. The Blokes here answered pretty quickly that when the steel sheet was being manufactured it would warp/ curl what have you, so they put the sheets through a stamping process to flatten the sheets out hence the marks.
If you do a search within the carrier section of this forum under "Canadian Project" you'll find the thread.
Cheers David....

[Geoff Winnington-Ball (RIP)]

Originally posted by David Ellery
Gidday guys, I asked the same Question some time back regarding a Canadian Carrier that came from the same place your machines at. The Blokes here answered pretty quickly that when the steel sheet was being manufactured it would warp/ curl what have you, so they put the sheets through a stamping process to flatten the sheets out hence the marks.
If you do a search within the carrier section of this forum under "Canadian Project" you'll find the thread.
Cheers David....

Quite so, David. These are straightening marks given that flat plate armour warps during the production process. Interestingly, I've see an armourless carrier, the plate of which has been replaced by mild steel, so adorned simply with the aid of an axe...

[Nigel Watson]

Another way to replicate these marks is to do it after you have undercoated the metal, especially if you are using two coats u/c. Then when you put the finishing coat/s on its there!! Saves sharpening the axe every time, not to mention saving your tennis elbow!!

Nigel

[Rob Beale]

are most evident after sandblasting. There is a rosette about 1 1/2 inches diameter around the dent, which itself is quite smooth.

On the frontal armour forward of the bulkhead, thicker plate is used and the holes are much smaller in diameter but deeper. There is a slight raised edge but no rosette.

I suspect that Armour Piercing ammo was used here.

Has any one else noticed the smaller holes on their LP?

Rob

[colin jones]

yes Rob, I've seen the smaller holes in my carriers. only on the front and the upper side at the front section only. Must be be cause it is thicker plate.
Colin.

[McDell Bros]

Thanks, makes sense. So does this indicate that our carrier is not armoured? Or did it not require this process? It does seem quite easy to mark with a file if that makes any difference. All hull plates are definatly original.

[Geoff Winnington-Ball (RIP)]

Originally posted by McDell Bros
Thanks, makes sense. So does this indicate that our carrier is not armoured? Or did it not require this process? It does seem quite easy to mark with a file if that makes any difference. All hull plates are definatly original.

Don't mark it up like that mate! If what you have is original, leave it that way... you're being true to history then.



Jif

[McDell Bros]

Dont worry definatly wasnt going to mark it up! Just curious thats all. the lack of marks & lack of serial numbers got us thinking??

[ron]

Hi Rob,
I have those small holes on the front of a South Aust carrier but have not seen them on Vic rail ones, or Met gas, I woder if all makers used this method ?
Ron,

[David Ellery]

For the life of me I can't remember where or who but I was told that when testing plate for LPs here in NZ they didn't fire at it with a rifle but used a ram which had the same velocity etc as a 303 round, that way you could set it up in a factory situation and get through alot of plate. David....

[ron]

Hi David,
That makes more sence than firing bullets at it and having them flying around a workshop full of people, you would certainly learn to keep your head down , thats if you did not loose it after the first salvo
Regards,
Ron,

[Rob Beale]

Originally posted by McDell Bros
Thanks, makes sense. So does this indicate that our carrier is not armoured? Or did it not require this process? It does seem quite easy to mark with a file if that makes any difference. All hull plates are definatly original.

When they built unarmoured vehicles such as pilot vehicles to trial a new design, (or like the NZ LP1 carriers), a triangular plate was fixed to the sides of the vehicle to show that it was mild steel only. This photo shows the triangular plate just above the end of the track adjusting tool.

Rob

[sapper740]

Originally posted by Rob Beale

I suspect that Armour Piercing ammo was used here.

Rob

Rob, you'd like to think so, but I'm not sure that AP ammo would have been used to proof the armour. Here's why: I used to be the Vice-President of the Port Coquitlam and District Hunting and Fishing Club back in B.C. I had open and virtually unlimited access to the range there and used to do things the public weren't allowed to. I loved doing penetration tests on various items such as propane bottles, cars, trucks, and even a B.C. Hydro bus. (B.C. guys, keep this under your hats!) Some time ago, the Canadian Government, in it's infinite wisdom decided to ban Incendiary ammunition. I had a bunch of 7.62 X 54R API which was soon going to be prohibited so I figured I'd spend a thoroughly enjoyable day at the range blowing it away. I had a 12" X 12" X 1" piece of steel which I set up as a gong at the 200m range. For comparison I fired several shots from my M14 using 7.62 Nato Ball. Bang! Clang! Bang! Clang! Bang! Clang! I checked the steel and found that the gong was dented to maybe 1/4". This is tougher steel than I thought. Next, I fired several shots of 7.62 X 54R API from a Moisin-Nagant M44 carbine. Wow! Every bullet of the API was protruding from the back of the steel gong. Not quite enough energy to completely pass through, but the steel was definitely holed. I was surprised to see that the ammo, fired from a short barreled carbine at 200m still carried sufficient energy to penetrate 1" steel. So, to make a long story short, AP ammunition from a long barreled Lee-Enfield at closer range would in all likelihood penetrate the armour, resulting in needed repairs to the UC and a loss in confidence for the crews.

[Nigel Watson]

Originally posted by Rob Beale
When they built unarmoured vehicles such as pilot vehicles to trial a new design, (or like the NZ LP1 carriers), a triangular plate was fixed to the sides of the vehicle to show that it was mild steel only. This photo shows the triangular plate just above the end of the track adjusting tool.

Rob

The triangular plate you come across on many early and pre WW2 "armoured" vehicles reads 'Caution' written in a semicircle with 'unarmoured' written along the bottom.

Nigel

[rob love]

Is there any documented evidence about the proof firing onto the steel plate? I know the holes of which you speak, I have seen them many times on various carriers, and for years have heard the tale of the proof firing.

As an aside, about a decade back I took a spare front armor section to a machine gun shoot. It was hit about 100 times by various military calibers. The only gun that left an impression was the Boys rifle (holes right through) and a lone hole through from 7.62 X 39 in an area that may have lost it's strength due to the cutting process.

[Ledsel]

When I sand blasted my carrier for paint I noticed silver spots, Like stainless weld spots that were ground smooth here and there on the armour. Each one also has a small dimple in the centre which I assume to be a test punch mark for hardness of the spot. I think the spots were blemish holes or slight defect repairs to the armour. Am I correct?

[Lynn Eades]

Hi the McDell boys. Your carrier will be armour plated.
The Australian and N.Z. built carriers are a different type of armour plate. Your carrier is of rivetted construction, and so did not present the difficulties of construction,as would a welded armour plate carrier. Nigel, in his infinite wisdom may be able to advise as to what his carriers plating, looks like.

Must be about time we saw some pictures here of what is happening with your carrier.
Show us your good work!

[McDell Bros]

Will try to get some photos on soon. We are finished with your front armour patterns thanks Lynn, we are just waiting for your hinges & handle to be finished & we will get it all back to you.

[Nigel Watson]

Originally Posted by Lynn Eades

Hi the McDell boys. Your carrier will be armour plated.
The Australian and N.Z. built carriers are a different type of armour plate. Your carrier is of rivetted construction, and so did not present the difficulties of construction,as would a welded armour plate carrier. Nigel, in his infinite wisdom may be able to advise as to what his carriers plating, looks like.

Must be about time we saw some pictures here of what is happening with your carrier.
Show us your good work!

My carrier is rivotted as well and what original armour it has is marked up in the same way as for armour plate. The sides and rear top hull plating have been replaced so isn't original on mine.

Looking forward to seeing the photos McDells!

Nigel

[Nigel Watson]

My apologies, should read rivetted and not rivotted, its the way we say them!!

Nigel

[Lynn Eades]

Was your carrier built in Canada?
The reason for my question is that there are a number of carrier hulls here, that are(I believe)English, and they have no marks on the armour plate.

[Nigel Watson]

No mine is Canadian built as far as I can tell!! It has its markings on the edge armour but they are a bit odd to place which is which. Still trying to match them with contracts etc. On going.

One thing to bear in mind is that not all parts of the carrier shell was made from BP plate, some had MS plate which wouldn't have had the marks on it.

Nigel

[Rob Beale]

One way I was told to identify carrier hulls, is to look at the engine bearers in the rear hull. If the channel has sharp corners, (hot rolled) it is English, and if it has rounded corners (cold rolled) it is Canadian.

Can anyone verify this? It is a quick way to ID a lower hull.

Rob

[Lynn Eades]

The Mc Dell boys carrier is an English Mk1 universal. It, like the remains of 3 or 4 other English Mk1's in the yard, that theirs came from, Has a relatively plain armour plate.
The plating does not have any of the markings like that of Canadian carriers, but it does differ from normal plate steel in that it does have a pattern to it.
To my un qualified eye, I would say there was no mechanical process, in straightening the plate, that left any marks on it,post production.
Obviously a different method of production was used.

[Lynn Eades]

It was me !!The armour plate does too. Isn't it amazing how some things are so obvious, and we know, but we can't add the 2 and 2.