Australian Military Registration C7120

[Rich Payne]

Would anyone be able to give me some pointers on the number shown on this motorcycle ? Is it an early or pre-war ARN ?



The picture came from Mike Kelly and is intriguing as it shows a 1938 or 1939 Norton 16H fitted with a fuel tank cut away for the Vokes filter, something that didn't generally appear until late in the war except possibly for a pre-war India Office contract (but they had a later type of engine)

My thoughts are that it is quite an official looking photograph and I wonder if the bike was an early evaluation example.

Is it possible to find out anything from the registration number ?

My apologies if this has been covered on the forum. I have searched but not even found posts that I know I've seen

Rich

[Mike K]

Originally Posted by Rich Payne

Is it an early or pre-war ARN ?

Rich ,

There are others around who are well read on the reg. numbers and dates - more knowledge than I have . Motorcycles are not my thing . But, my guess is that particular 4 digit number is from 1939 or early 1940 . It is confusing: they used the C prefix and AIF at the same time , plus the unusual 'O' prefix in Palestine . My first Morris PU has one of these 'O' numbers on the bonnet (0 36?0) .. I put a query to Mike Cecil ( Senior curator of technology at the AWM) , but even he doesn't know anything about it . I have found AWM pics of Morris' in Palsetine , some with bonnet numbers close to mine .. but haven't found the actual vehicle yet. This CS8 is
0 3699 , my PU could be 3690 ?


Mike

[Tony Smith]

The "C" plate became the ARN system.

Pre-War, Australian Army vehicles were issued with Defence Department plates, that had the format of: DD, then a red Broadarrow, then a 2, 3 or 4 digit number.

Sometime around the outbreak of the war (Pre- or Post- ?), a new system of Commonwealth Plates arose, being a red C then a 3, 4 or 5 digit number. For the Army, these were only issued to vehicles of the Militia Forces or the Permanent Staff, for vehicles that were intended to remain in Australia.

When the AIF was formed, it was naturally intended that the Troops and their vehicles were to serve outside of Australia and a system mirroring the WD system of vehicle classes was used, in the form of AIF in white then the vehicle class letter in Red, the the number in white, all on a black background.

After the Japanese entry to the war, the AIF registrations were gradually transferred to the C System over a period from Dec 41 to Mar 42. Through convenience, omission or directive, over time, the C was dropped from the number and it became the ARN, although other Commonwealth Government Departments continued to display the C. There are several examples of the same vehicle being registered under the "DD", "AIF", "C" or ARN systems at different times.

The C number on this bike is either an AMF vehicle from 39 to 41, or any Army vehicle from late 41 to the end of the war. Looking up the number in the AWM records will indicate the actual date.

[Rich Payne]

Thanks Mike and Tony. All the evidence points towards an early date for this machine.

Are the AWM able to look up individual enquiries or will anyone else be there at some point and able to look this one up for me ?

It's not a pressing need but these small things sometimes help to build up the big picture.

Cheers,

Rich

[rewdco]

Who knows more about the Royal Enfield WD/C models that served in the AIF and in the Canadian Army? I found these pictures in the Australian and Canadian pictures archives, and would like to find more information about them: numbers, dates, contracts, ...

Thanks in advance for your help,
REgards,
Jan

[Keith Webb]

Originally Posted by Rich Payne

Are the AWM able to look up individual enquiries or will anyone else be there at some point and able to look this one up for me ?

It's not a pressing need but these small things sometimes help to build up the big picture.

Cheers,

Rich

Afraid you'll have to go there yourself, or ask someone else who is going there to check for you. Also you need to notify the research centre in advance so they can get the book out for you. Tony may have a better idea of which of the series of ledgers you'll need to ask for.

[Tony Smith]

C7120 will be found in AWM 126-05. Next time I'm there I will check it out, but if someone gets there before me, that's the book to look for.

The number of documents and references the AWM Research Centre holds is bordering on the massive, ranging from personal diaries and letters through to Battalion War Diaries and Official Histories. I can understand the need to pre-request documents as some are now stored off site, but sometimes you will find info that will need to be checked in another source, and the trail goes cold because that reference is not at hand. For possible example, you might find that 7120 has a cross reference to an AIF number and you want to look at that, but the book is held off site. AIF registrations are in AWM 126-01, -02, -03, -04.

Just the vehicle registration details alone covers 27 books and nearly 200,000 vehicles. This would be a huge task to digitise from a hand written ledger with lots of scrawled notations.

[Rich Payne]

Thanks Chaps. Tony, if you are able to look up that number at some time in the future I'd be ever so grateful - and also if you could see what was either side of it i.e. if it was a large contract.

I fully understand the difficulties of ploughing through pages of handwritten ledgers. The Norton Owners Club have been endeavouring to compile a database for years using volunteers but it's still not accessible.

I have found a reference to the supply of eight military spec machines with Vokes Air Filter to 'Disney' which I have listed as a pre-war Australian agent for Nortons (in Victoria ? would that be a significant location ?). There does not seem to have been any one Norton agent for Australia as the name Tozer Kemsley & Milburn often appears for other areas.



These may not be the correct bikes as they refer to 38/16H and the one in the picture has the 1937 spec engine (which the WD carried on using).

In answer to Jan's query, I have nothing on Australian use of Enfields but I have got a pencilled note in the back of my old copy of 'British Forces Motorcycles' to the effect that the Canadians were supplied with 250 WD/Cs + 236 further in lieu of Triumphs undelivered due to enemy action. Unfortunately, I can't remember where I read that information so you'll have to treat it as uncorroborated. I know that Triumph did have supply problems after the blitzing of Coventry so it does seem possible that alternatives were sought.