Morris-Commercial PU 8-cwt in greyish blue colour?

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by Mike Kelly in C8 at work ?
Hanno , where and who owns this pre war Morris PU ? Have you any pics ?

We know of around 25 MCC PU's left . At least bits of 4 have been found here , plus one complete one .

Mike, I'm sure Rory Ballard has told you about this one (if not already, his letter must be in the snail mail ).
While In Normandy, we went over to visit a French collector living near Caen on 10 June. He has restored a Bedford MW and Chevrolet C15, and he's now working on this PU he found somewhere in France. Either the WD census number on the door or the chassis no. denoted it was of 1938-ish vintage, I can't remember exactly (my poor Dutch mind worked overtime translating French into English and the other way round!). A data plate stated this PU got a Class I rebuild in August 1945. When the current owner and his mechanic stripped it down for restoration, they found the chassis to be painted in a greyish blue colour, even under brackets bolted to the chassis etc., so they had it colour-matched and repainted it.

Could you explain that? Could it have been an ex-RN truck? But would they have repainted their trucks that thoroughly? I recall a number of Morris-Commercial trucks were given/sold to the French military after WW2, which could be the reason why this 8-cwt was rebuilt that late. Could the French have ordered that paint colour? From what little evidence I have, the French Army standardised on American-built trucks, while the French Navy used Canadian and British built trucks.

Any insights welcome!

Hanno

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by Hanno Spoelstra
Could it have been an ex-RN truck?

Like this one? (source)

[Mike K]

Hanno ,

This blue PU is news to me , it's the first I have heard about it and seen it .

Rory is looking a little sunburnt ! Too much time out in the open .

Do you think it was painted blue during its 1945 re build . I cannot imagine it being a factory paint colour . Being a pre war built example , it is very rare . It would have hub caps fitted .

It is quite possibly a ex French navy PU . Rory did buy some new 900-13 ex french navy stock tyres .

I have the remains of another PU , it's about 400 miles north of me , it is only good for parts .

And , I agree with your comments re : Classic MV mag . I emailed the person who wrote that atrocious bad article on the MCC PU in the mag . I listed all of the terrible errors he made , I got no reply of course .

Thanks for the pics , that RN C4 , I have seen once before . Did you notice the U.S. pattern tyres on it .

Maybe Denmark got some too .

Mike

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by Mike Kelly
This blue PU is news to me , it's the first I have heard about it and seen it .

Do you think it was painted blue during its 1945 re build . I cannot imagine it being a factory paint colour . Being a pre war built example , it is very rare . It would have hub caps fitted .

It is quite possibly a ex French navy PU .

Actually, the greyish blue paint was only found on the chassis, axles and gearbox. The cab and body had traces of pre-/early war colour schemes. No doubt Rory will provide you with further details and pictures. He said this PU was probably mix 'n matched from piles of chassis, cabs and bodies during its Class I rebuild as the WD census number painted on the door did not match the chassis number.
So, as this PU did not come out of the rebuild workshop in August 1945 fully painted blue, the chassis must have been painted blue before that date. Possibly during an earlier repaint/rebuild when it was in RN service? That C4 in RN livery suggests the Royal Navy had a number of Morris-Commercial trucks in service and had them repainted.

H.

[Richard Farrant]

Originally posted by Hanno Spoelstra
He said this PU was probably mix 'n matched from piles of chassis, cabs and bodies during its Class I rebuild as the WD census number painted on the door did not match the chassis number.

That C4 in RN livery suggests the Royal Navy had a number of Morris-Commercial trucks in service and had them repainted.

Hanno,
When these vehicles went through Class I rebuilds, they often took on new WD numbers from a group allocated specificly for rebuilds. I restored a Bedford MW where this was the case.

I helped a friend restore a C4 air compressor truck in the late 70's and on the door we found RN serial numbers and the unit designation "4MLRU" , which baffled everyone including the Navy at the time. The contract number on the truck applied to a batch for the Army, so it could have been transfered. It would have left the factory in the basic colour of the time, in this case behind the cab it was Dark Earth.

Richard

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by Richard Farrant
When these vehicles went through Class I rebuilds, they often took on new WD numbers from a group allocated specificly for rebuilds. I restored a Bedford MW where this was the case.

According to Rory, the WD census no. on the door was one assigned to a Morris-Commercial PU, but it did not tie in with the chassis no. Hence his conclusion the cab has been switched at some time during it's lifecycle.

As far as I know all Morris' were built for the Army and hence delivered in Army colour schemes. I can imagine any trucks being transferred to the RN and them having it repainted in their colour scheme, but the French owner found the blue colour only on the chassis (even under brackets), hence he concluded it was the first factory-applied paint layer. But as there is no indication Morris-Commercial ever painted a chassis blue, it must at one time have been totally taken to pieces, stripped of all paint, and repainted in blue - but not the cab and body :
A real enigma, if you ask me.

H.

Originally posted by Mike Kelly
Thanks for the pics , that RN C4 , I have seen once before . Did you notice the U.S. pattern tyres on it .

I thought CS8 to start with but have subsequently learnt to recognise the longer wheelbase C4; Rory has seen this too and recalls it is titled as a C4.

In the question of tyres (again!) Mike, these are likely UK supply NDCC; 9.00 x 16s are common for LR 101s, so easy to find in quantity at reasonable prices to keep this truck going. T24s are difficult and the earlier patterns are extinct of course.

R.

[Richard Farrant]

Originally posted by FV623
I thought CS8 to start with but have subsequently learnt to recognise the longer wheelbase C4; Rory has seen this too and recalls it is titled as a C4.

Ah ha ! There are two wheelbase lengths for the C4, the Mk1 is identical to the CS8, where as the Mk2 had the wheelbase increased by 9 inches to cope with the heavier wireless bodies.

Richard

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by Richard Farrant
Ah ha ! There are two wheelbase lengths for the C4, the Mk1 is identical to the CS8, where as the Mk2 had the wheelbase increased by 9 inches to cope with the heavier wireless bodies.

This picture (source) clearly shows the added space between the cab and GS body, typical of the Mk.2.

H.

"Morris-Commercial C4 15 cwt (YFF947) seen at Chatham dockyard. Photographed on a fenland farm about 8 years ago."

[Mike K]

Hanno

Rory is currently looking around for a C4 cab to measure up . A local in his village has a C4 or late CS8 that had the full cab, the previous owner has chucked the cab away and Rory is making a new cab , he needs dimensions , The cabs I have are all incomplete , years of rot, termites , bushfires has them all in a shocking state .

Maybe somebody can help , the problem with drawings is the time involved , its tedious and you need patience to do it properly . Another thing is , many cabs have been modified and rebuilt , you don't really know whats original after 60 years . Wood doesn't last as well as metal . I have one original 15 cwt wooden side , thats it , all floors are long gone . the cast brass plates survive Ok though . All mine are Contract V4152 , the CS8 batch sent to Australia were all from this contract as far as I can tell.

In mid 1945, CS8's were being sold to civilian users here through a Morris dealership in Melbourne ( Lanes Motors ). Essential users , farmers etc. bought them . Around 200 were sold . They were given a coat of cheap grey paint . Some PU's were sold also . Mine was civilian registered in July 45 . I have the original reg. papers for it .

Mike Kelly

Mike

[Richard Farrant]

Originally posted by Mike Kelly
Rory is currently looking around for a C4 cab to measure up . A local in his village has a C4 or late CS8 that had the full cab, the previous owner has chucked the cab away and Rory is making a new cab , he needs dimensions

Mike,

The local in Rory's village, Matthew, knows of a C4 Mk1 compressor truck, compressor removed now. I met Matthew (the "local with a C4") at Beltring and we matched some sidescreens to this C4, which is in North Kent. I can vouch on the originality of this cab, because I helped a friend save it from a yard in 1978, where it had laid for many years. The rear of the cab had Dark Earth colour on it from when it was built. The engine was the original number. Truck had been part of the Royal Navy mobile repair team that supported the Coastal Forces during WW2 in UK.

I would assume a Mk1 cab is the same as a Mk2 in dimensions.

Richard

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by Hanno Spoelstra
While In Normandy, we went over to visit a French collector living near Caen on 10 June. He has restored a Bedford MW and Chevrolet C15, and he's now working on this PU he found somewhere in France.

Apparently this PU 8-cwt has now been restored and put on display at the Bayeux museum.

Or wait, is this the other PU 8-cwt in France?

Both pics were taken by Neil Plucknett.

H.

[Alex van de Wetering]

I just returned from Normandy three days ago. Among the locations visited was the Bayeux museum. It was a real slap in the face.....
Don't get me wrong, there is nothing wrong with the museum when you visit it for the first time, but if you have visited it before about 5 years ago or more, than you are up for a surprise!

I did hear about a row in the museum a few years ago and now I realised what the result was. Most of the vehicles, weapons and uniforms are no longer in the collection, including the rare Skoda truck, Universal carrier, M29 weasel, Dingo etc. I guess most of their former collection was owned by one person that somehow decided to remove his belongings. They did manage to redecorate the first hall with pictures, some uniforms and howitzers, but the second hall was deserted. They do still have the G13, Churchill, M10 and Sherman M4A1 outside and the Sexton and Caterpillar dozer inside, completed with a jeep and a GMC with radio box.

oh.....and sadly no Morris PU!

Alex

[Mike K]

So the green livery example in the photo, is the blue chassis vehicle... confused .Or is it a different car ?

One little detail I have noticed on the MCC Pu's. I believe sometime during production, they raised the height of the windscreen frame by about 2 inches. I suspect it was a fairly late modification, the last few thousand maybe . One of the wrecks here came with 2" long 'risers' added to the windscreen posts.. Somewhere , the vehicle was fitted with a late inner frame .. they welded in 'raisers' to lengthen the posts , in order to fit the replacement inner screen frame.

The green one pictured in this thread seems to have the later 'higher' screen fitted.

Mike

[Mike K]

Piccies of the blue PU ..having being restored by a Frenchman.what other colour could it be .

http://www.geocities.com/vk3cz/bluePU.html

More pics to come soon.

Look closely at the tyres ..I see cracks in the sidewalls ...taking a risk with a beaut truck like that .

Mike

[Keith Orpin]

Mike,
Fantistic restoration, if it's in post war colours. Most, if not all RAF vehicles during WW2 were karki or OD. A very good freind of mine has recently restored a 43 Willys in RAF blue, looks brilliant, but, these are post war colours, not WW2.
Regards
Keith

[Mike K]

yes .. what a brilliant job ....... I've added more pics .

The story goes.. It was rebuilt after the war , a chassis up rebuild, and repainted that blue . Maybe a French Navy rebuild or something ... it might have been a ex BEF car . Those cars were obsolete by 1945 .. cannot imagine the RAF using them after the war , but that's only guessing .

Your friends Jeep looks very nice I must say ... Back in the mid 70's , I bought a ex RAAF Jeep , a stripped out wreck off a farm. It still had it's 1950's RAAF blue paint finish it ..very faded . Some early WW2 era RAF vehiclkes were blue I believe , , left over from the pre war days ... does somebody else know more .

Mike

[Alex van de Wetering]

Some early WW2 era RAF vehiclkes were blue I believe , , left over from the pre war days ... does somebody else know more .

That's the same I heard and I believe its also mentioned in Mike Starmers colour publications. Blue until 1941/42 and than blue again post war, if I remember correctly (???). Would love to hear some more about the RAF blue....you keep on running into restored WW2 vehicles at shows in RAF blue. It's such a nice colour!

Mike, good to see the pictures on the website! The restoration really looked excellent in every aspect. I was just in time, because just after taking the pictures, the little PU went to the "Supermarche" for some BBQ ingredients!

Alex

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Ah yes, the BLUE PU(ke)!

Originally Posted by Hanno Spoelstra

he's now working on this PU he found somewhere in France. Either the WD census number on the door or the chassis no. denoted it was of 1938-ish vintage, *snip*. A data plate stated this PU got a Class I rebuild in August 1945. When the current owner and his mechanic stripped it down for restoration, they found the chassis to be painted in a greyish blue colour, even under brackets bolted to the chassis etc., so they had it colour-matched and repainted it.

All we now for sure is that this PU was fully rebuilt in 1945 and the chassis, axles and gearbox were then repainted a greyish-blue colour. As rebuilds go, the cab and rear body which were refitted to this chassis were not the original ones as the WD census number painted on the door does not match the chassis number. In 2004 when Rory and I inspected it, the cab and body were not yet rebuilt and still had traces of pre-/early war colour schemes - no blue whatsoever.

I must admit the truck looks stunning in these colours, and I can well understand the owner´s decision to refinish it as such. As this is a pre-war truck, it could have been painted blue-grey if PU´s were ever in RAF service (which I doubt). Also, most likely they were not painted blue-grey inside-out, but only the outer surfaces.

Jeeps in RAF blue-grey looks great but are nonsense, as after the war started reaching the shores of Britain in the summer of 1940 during the Battle of Britain, the RAF started to use regular Army paint schemes - see R.A.F. Ground Equipment Blue - paint specification and follow the links to related threads.

Hanno

[Keith Brooker]

Heres one that could do with a New paint job, left for the Germans in 1940.
photo from my collection.

[Mike K]

OK

Hanno has filled us in there . I have put a query to the PU 'expert' re: the RAF use .. stand by .

Apparently its had a engine replacement recently .. or at least a a major repair job . The owner /restorer is totally Non - English comprehende ? We need a French speaker .

[Alex Blair (RIP)]

Originally Posted by Mike Kelly

OK

Hanno has filled us in there . I have put a query to the PU 'expert' re: the RAF use .. stand by .

Apparently its had a engine replacement recently .. or at least a a major repair job . The owner /restorer is totally Non - English comprehende ? We need a French speaker .

I nominate Bob Carrier...
He speaks French English and profane...One of them will get through..
Boobee..are you bye..??
Over..