CMP Value

huxley · #1 28-05-09, 15:39

What would be reasonable value of a relatively complete Ford F15 CMP in the US?

It would certainly be a project.

No bed, stuck motor, no title are the downsides.

The rest appears to be there with little apparent rust.

Cheers!

Huxley

BCBlitz · #2 28-05-09, 16:52

Hux

Be carefull buying a truck in the US without a title, prolly wont make it past the border, even if its said to be a " parts truck " If it can be made to run they prolly will require a title, as well without a title your local insurance Co will prolly never regy it, do your homework, as alot of questions and get names or badge # of any border people you talk to along with time and date for future refrence, as everyone you talk to will prolly give you a different answer.

Trust me been there done that ..........

huxley · #3 28-05-09, 20:09

I am actually in the U.S.... I guess I should have stated that. But I would have to consider taking it to events near my friends in Winnipeg. Evidently, this CMP came from Saskatchewan(sic?) for parts for another non-F15 project, but the owner decided it to be too complete to cut up.

So any guesses at value? I have pics if anyone is interested.

Cheers!

H

Phil Waterman · #4 28-05-09, 21:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by huxley

What would be reasonable value of a relatively complete Ford F15 CMP in the US?

It would certainly be a project.

No bed, stuck motor, no title are the downsides.

The rest appears to be there with little apparent rust.

Cheers!

Huxley

Strange that you should ask this question, yours is the second F15 I've heard of being purchased in the US this month. The other was in Vt and has been purchased by someone in New Hampshire.

Just of curiosity where are you located as there are not that many of US CMP nuts down here in the States. If you are in the northeast I can put you in touch with the other new F15 owner maybe you can help each other out on parts hunting.

As to your question what is a CMP worth in the States I've paid $1000 to $1600 for each of mine of course that starts 30 years ago. Doesn't really matter what you pay for it the restoration costs will be many times more. When restored almost nobody will pay what you put into the truck. It's a labor of love or insanity.

huxley · #5 28-05-09, 22:06

The truck is located in the Midwest, as am I.

I am contemplating the purchase for airshows, reenactments, etc.

I think it is actually a F30 or F60, as the wheelbase looks considerably longer than the 101" of an F15. The rear axle does not have duals.

Looks more like the 134" GS model. I had a 1946 158" GMC Civilian Tonner years ago, and it looks shorter than that.

Sounds like the price is in the correct range... perhaps even on the lower side.

Thanks!

H

Phil Waterman · #6 28-05-09, 23:26

Hi

If it is a 134 or 158" wheelbase take a look at my website to see what I've done for bodies on my C60S which is 134" and my C60L which is 158". One word of caution if you are planning to drive either long distances even with a more powerful engine these trucks are all done at 55 MPH my C60S with the radio box and a more powerful engine will haul down the interstate at 55 MPH but if you push beyond that the drive train gets very busy and the shortness of the wheelbase makes it squirrelly. The radio box setup as a camper though makes great truck for going to air shows or shows of any kind, even haul an air conditioner for sleeping on those hot nights.

The other thing about driving these any distance is that you need an intercom with headsets to be able to talk to the person beside you. Sound level at full throttle is around 110db.

Cheers Phil

Bob Carriere · #7 29-05-09, 04:37

Welcome to the club...... we are curious to see what you got.....

Bob C.

huxley · #8 29-05-09, 20:01

Thanks Bob & Phil!

Actually I am still in proess of getting info on the truck and doing my research.

I have owned old vehicles in the past and know the limitations and the challenges... although I think this may be more unique challenge to say the least!

The owner is a farmer and is slow to respond due to srping field work... and the truck is about 6-7 hours away... although I am blessed with a couple of waypoints and/or possible FOB's along the way, and some expert mechanical experience in the family.

But, if anyone would volunteer to provide some guidance, I would be eternally grateful.

Final plan for this truck would be markings for RCAF No.417 Squadron, either North Africa or Italy. Or perhaps 2TAF.

Cheers!

H

Jim Price · #9 29-05-09, 23:20

Huxley,
Where are you located (Canada or US?) and where is the truck located? I purchased my F8 in Ontario, Canada and had it shipped to me here in Arizona.
It did not have a title only a bill of sale. I've purchased another vehicle in that manner and had no problem getting it licensed.

Here in Arizona when a title is missing one needs to buy an indemnification insurance policy insuring the State for the value of the vehicle. (That's in case someone would come along and demand that you return their stolen vehicle and sue the State for licensing it.) Then, the vehicle is inspected to see if it's "street legal" (I've never have one licensed as a historical vehicle.) and if it is, the State assigns a vehicle identification number to the vehicle and you're on your way. I'm not yet ready to go through this process on the F8 but will let MLU members know how it goes.

Don't know how it works where you live but maybe the preceding will help.

Regards,
Jim

huxley · #10 30-05-09, 15:23

Jim -

I checked on our local DOT site (Iowa.. truck is also in USA) regarding titling of such vehciles and it was a similar story. I had similar experience with my old Austin 10 Saloon (pitured in my avatar).

I got more info on the truck today. It is 158" WB (does this make a F60 then?), missing bed and front bumper. Body has some surface rust but nothing major. Engine is stuck, but transfer case, axles and tranny seem to be o.k.

But the size/length of the truck is worrying me now. I went that route in the past (1946 GMC 3-tonner) and the difference between trailering/towing such a vehicle and the smaller trucks to events is enormous. We eventually ended up with a 25 foot machine trailer with 1 ton truck (12K towing capaity) with a gooseneck/5th arrangement... none of which I have access to anymore.

Has anyone cut one of these trucks down? Or I suppose it would be sacriligious!?!

ATB -

H

Bruce Parker (RIP) · #11 30-05-09, 15:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by huxley

Jim -

Has anyone cut one of these trucks down? Or I suppose it would be sacriligious!?!

H

Lots of people have cut the frames on these. Then we crazy people buy them and fix them up again.

huxley · #12 30-05-09, 16:11

I think in the Jeep community they call that the "bubba factor"...

Grant Bowker · #13 30-05-09, 17:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by huxley

I got more info on the truck today. It is 158" WB (does this make a F60 then?), missing bed and front bumper. Body has some surface rust but nothing major. Engine is stuck, but transfer case, axles and tranny seem to be o.k.

But the size/length of the truck is worrying me now. I went that route in the past (1946 GMC 3-tonner) and the difference between trailering/towing such a vehicle and the smaller trucks to events is enormous. We eventually ended up with a 25 foot machine trailer with 1 ton truck (12K towing capaity) with a gooseneck/5th arrangement... none of which I have access to anymore.

Has anyone cut one of these trucks down? Or I suppose it would be sacriligious!?!
H

The 158" WB does make it a F60, I'm quite sure there were initially plans for a LWB 30cwt, and almost equally sure they were never built.

Although the wheelbase is longer than other CMPs it isn't any longer than a modern pickup with extended cab (not crew cab) and long box.

I don't remember seeing it in the Ford maintenance manual (but it could be there) but there is a procedure listed in the Chevrolet repair manuals for splicing the frame. Basically the process is measure with care, cut at a 30 degree angle to horizontal for a longer splice and weld it solid. I don't remeber seeing any such repairs done on Chevrolet CMPs but I have seen Ford frames with nicely done welds in the frame just to the rear of the cab that look like they might have been done with this process. I have no idea if these Ford frames were factory built (to use smaller presses for the part length frame rails, or to allow one front section and different rear sections for different wheelbases to be joined) or field repaired but they all look to have been done by skilled welders, not some idiot who thinks more filler rod makes a better weld.

In the end, it's your truck and you can do as you want with it. If you do decide to shorten the wheelbase can I persuade you to stick with the original wheelbases of 134 or 101 inches? Sticking with the original wheelbases will let you either find or recreate "better" looking bodies. If you go with 134 inches, you shouldn't have to make up a new driveshaft, just remove the part between the transmission and the hanger bearing (at least this would be the case on a Chevrolet). If you want to go as short as 101 inches (again, it's your truck) there are several other differences to consider between the F15A that is the most common 101" and the F60 trucks. Axle ratios, size of the axle steering joints, tire size, single speed transfer case, frame cross section and maybe more. The easiest way to get to 101" WB would be to find a rolling F15A chassis and mix and match parts. For Chevrolet CMPs there seem to be many more 158 and 101 inch WB frames than 134 available, it is probably the same for Ford. Many people buy a "parts truck" and end up with a mix of the parts from both vehicles and parts from other sources. The front bumpers were standard rolled chanel section. Just measure one for size (likely 6", but get all dimensions so you get the right weight/shape 6" or whatever channel), measure and drill for the tow loops, frame mountings and brush guards.

I don't have as full a set of Ford manuals as Chevrolet, does anyone have spare parts manuals for F30, F60S or F60H they would like to sell me so that I can better answer these questions (and make reproductions available)?

huxley · #14 30-05-09, 18:47

Many thanks.

I would definitely keep with a stock length if I were cut the frame.

The 134 looking the most appealing right now because of what appears to be (at first glance anyway) a less complicated bed.

I could still use someone to volunteer to look at a few pics and give a informed opinion of this potential purchase... or perhaps I will just upload them from work on Monday.

Cheers!

H

Jim Price · #15 30-05-09, 21:06

Grant,
My F8' frame has the splices you speak of. When I queried MLU members on this the response was that it was a factory-done job.

Regards,
Jim

PS The pictures were of the frame before it was painted. It looks much better now!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grant Bowker

I don't remeber seeing any such repairs done on Chevrolet CMPs but I have seen Ford frames with nicely done welds in the frame just to the rear of the cab that look like they might have been done with this process. I have no idea if these Ford frames were factory built (to use smaller presses for the part length frame rails, or to allow one front section and different rear sections for different wheelbases to be joined) or field repaired but they all look to have been done by skilled welders, not some idiot who thinks more filler rod makes a better weld.

Grant Bowker · #16 30-05-09, 21:53

Thanks for the photo, this looks more like 45 degrees than the 30 (from horizontal) specified in the Chevrolet repair procedure, but does match the Ford frames I'm remembering. When I spoke of good welds, I meant "as good as a typical CMP factory weld", not like some of the post-war fixes. Strong and beautiful is good, gorilla welds are acceptable because they are strong, but some of the postwar repairs are neither strong nor beautiful.

huxley · #17 01-06-09, 15:31

I would appreciate any observations, comments, criticisms, suggestions... thanks!

The driver's side door and engine cover are included. Front bumper is missing.

Huxley

Phil Waterman · #18 01-06-09, 15:53

The bumper is no big deal, the brush bar in front of the grill will take more time to find or fabricate. Along with the D towing rings though there are more of the D rings around then number of good trucks. If this truck spent much of this life on this farm ask the farmer has a scrap pile amazing what has been found in some farm scrap piles.

Keep us posted.

Cheers Phil

huxley · #19 01-06-09, 17:23

Are original beds rare or generally available?

I know on WCs & CCKWs in the states most were cast off and other farm or industrial job-specific bodies added.

I seem to recall Rob Fast telling me that all the radio and ambulance boxes ended up as chicken coops!

H

Grant Bowker · #20 01-06-09, 19:03

Many CMP bodies were also removed, either to mount something of higher capacity or because the body was wanted for another use. I have recently seen a Derrick body that would suit a 134" wheelbase CMP in the Toronto area that looked to be in reasonable condition (some work needed, but a good starting point). Freight would be a consideration. To finish the build you would need to find and add a winch to the frame you are looking at.

huxley · #21 09-06-09, 17:54

Another question came up in my feeble mind. If this is in fact a F60 it should have 20" wheels, yes? Has anyone gone back down to the 16" wheels to cut weight, overall ride height, tire/tube/liner cost, etc. No clearance problems?

I fear this 60cwt truck is overkill for my needs... even after shortening to 134" wheelbase.

Cheers!

H

Grant Bowker · #22 09-06-09, 18:15

I know people have put 20" rims onto the lighter trucks that originally had 16" rims. I don't know of anyone who has done what you suggest. I suspect there could be interference between the brake drum and wheel, but don't know this for sure. If you want, I can try to figure out the brake drum size tonight when I get home if nobody can tell us first hand that it either works or does not.

huxley · #23 09-06-09, 19:32

Thanks Grant!

But it is not an issue at this time... I am still blue skying this project.

Phil Waterman · #24 09-06-09, 20:20

Hi

There are some of the 60 series that have the smaller brake drums to use the 16" which are 8 lugs these trucks will take either 16" or 20" see picture of my C60L during change over. The 16" wheel brake drums backing plates on those trucks measure approximately 16 1/2 diameter while the 20" wheel brake backing plates are 17 1/2". The 16" wheels don't fit the larger drums I tried.

Difference in wheel size had to do with use truck, weight and date of production. I've heard that the smaller tires were also used to save on rubber and to make some vehicles like ambulances, easier to load. Also the smaller diameter tires would deliver significantly more torque to the ground at the expense of speed. This would explain their use for towing anti-aircraft guns. From experience with my C60L the torque makes shifting out of 1st gear difficult but use of 1st is also limited. With the 16" wheels you can expect to be pasted by people on bicycles.

huxley · #25 09-06-09, 20:25

Never thought of the changing of the gear ratios from 20" to 16"!

Good call!

H

Phil Waterman · #26 09-06-09, 21:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by huxley

Never thought of the changing of the gear ratios from 20" to 16"!

Good call!

H

Hi-

Quick look through CMP parts book shows only one ratio for all.

Manual specs show the C30 and C60 series as being 7.16 to 1 while the parts book lists them as 6:43 ratio (same thing).

Though your point is well taken if you could find a pair of ring and pinion gear sets from the heavy civi chevy truck, that used the same differential carrier, you could go to 6:39. This would give you better road speed while slowing down the drive train which would be a good thing for the road. But this option would only work if you were also up engineing as the 216 engine just doesn't have power.

All in all the tire size, gear ratios, and engine size for the CMPs are probably a very good balance for conditions they were design for. The off road performance of CMPs is down right impressive. After 30 years of club trail rides people are still amazed that my HUP will climb anything a Jeep or M151 can climb. CMPs just do it slower.

hrpearce · #27 10-06-09, 00:47

Taken from MB-C2 the diff ratios were different for the different rim sizes;
C-8A 5.42 to 1, C-15 6.17 to 1, C-15A 6.5 to 1, all others as mentioned 7.16 to 1.

Phil Waterman · #28 10-06-09, 15:54

As I don't have a full set of parts books so I can't confirm which Differential Carriers are interchangeable.

I do have the HUP and C60L 3Ton parts books and a quick check makes it look like not only are the Differential Carriers different numbers as well as different ratios. Also note that there are two different ratios listed for HUPs 7-38 vs. 6-37 which are not listed in the MB-C2 or MB-C1.

Cheers Phil

huxley · #29 10-06-09, 17:18

All good info... thanks to all.

I have a business contact who is going to do a on-the-ground inspection of the truck for me. (I live 8 hours away..., he lives 25 minutes from the seller.)

Any problems in particular he should look for?

Thanks again!

H

Grant Bowker · #30 10-06-09, 18:37

Rust in general - surface rust isn't the big problem, rot through of complex sections like the windshield frames is worse. Are there obvious missing parts? Are hard to find parts like the original mirrors (rectangular, slightly convex) present. Getting a spare wheel/tire (crazy small thing here - are all of the nuts present that hold the wheel halves together present? (they are an odd thread)) and any cargo body parts that can be used as a pattern is a bonus. What about the small lights on the front fenders and for tail lights (also rear axle convoy lamp) about half the length of a super fat cigar tube. Are there proper seat frames in the truck? What about the internal engine cover (doghouse)? Are there data and shift pattern plates present (total 4?)? What shape is the steering wheel in? The wood ones similar to CCKW/DUKW have been $200+ on eBay lately. The rubber ones for the Ford may be easier to find than the Chev, I don't know about this. Is there a condensation container for the radiator (on Ford over the frame rail to the left of the engine)?
Some of these things can be bought NOS or reproduction, but it adds to the cost.