7th armoured desert rat markings

[kevin powles]

Hi, I want to put some decals on my tank hunter carrier, I like the idea of marking her with the British 7th Armoured brigade 'Desert Rats' marking during the Normandy campaign.

A couple of questions for those in the know, What size would the insignia be, I'm guessing 9" square. Also what is the true correct desert rat marking for 1942, I seem to have found many different variations of that rat.

I have a genuine vehicle sign dated 1942, I have attached a picture. Also some pictures from the flames of war website showing Normandy campaign insinia, I want to put the '77' on her (anti tank).

I know this variant of carrier was never there, but i going to put the correct TL number on, I know how the bridging number should be. I have looked at alot of old early carrier footage recently and alot of carrier markings seem to be all over the place.

If any one can point me in the right direction with websites or good books depicting the correct insignia or better still any pictures of tank hunters in service, that would be great.
Help. Kevin.

[lssah2025]

Ok you are a little confusing here, do you want:

1. 7th Armoured Division or 7th Armoured Brigade?

7th Armoured Division was a Red Gerboa and 7th Armoured Brigade was a Green Gerboa "part of the division" and the 4th Armoured Brigade was a Black Gerboa "part of the division."

2. The 7th Armoured Brigade was not in Normandy, The 7th Armoured Brigade (The Green Rats) was one of the original units that formed the Mobile Division (as the 7th Armoured Division was originally known) in 1938. It was originally known as the Light Armoured Brigade consisting of 7th, 8th & 11th Hussars. It became the 7th Armoured Brigade in December 1939. It served from with 7th Armoured Division through all the early desert battles, including Sidi Rezegh before leaving it in early 1942. The Brigade arrived in Rangoon (Burma) in February 1942 in time to take part in the retreat through Burma to India during that year. It return to the Middle East in 1943 serving in Iraq and Egypt before moving to Italy in May 1944 where the Brigade fought as part of the Canadian Corps for the rest of the war. The end of the Second World War found 7th Armoured Brigade based in northern Italy as part of the occupying forces. Sometime in late 1945 and early 1946 the Brigade was disbanded and the 22nd Armoured Brigade (the Armoured Brigade then serving with the 7th Armoured Division in Germany) was re-designated the 7th Armoured Brigade. It is the re-named Brigade that is now serving in the British Army of today.

3. The 4th Armoured Brigade was in Normandy, The 4th Armoured Brigade (The Black Rats) was one of the original units that formed the Mobile Division (as the 7th Armoured Division was originally known) in 1938. It was originally known as the Heavy Armoured Brigade consisting of 1st and 6th Royal Tank Regiments. It became the 4th Armoured Brigade in December 1939. When Italy declared war on 10 June 1940 the Brigade took part in its first action the attack on Fort Capuzzo. It served from with 7th Armoured Division through all the early desert battles, including Sidi Rezegh and Gazala. After becoming an Independent Brigade (being then known as 4th Light Armoured Brigade) in September 1942, the Brigade continued to served under the command of 7th Armoured Division almost until the end of the war in North Africa in 1943. In June 1943 it joined 13 Corps and supported 5th and 50th Divisions in Sicily later that year. On 16th September 1943 it moved to Italy where it fought with the 8th Army on the East coast leaving in January 1944 to return home to prepare for the invasion on Northern Europe.

The first tanks of the Brigade landed in Normandy on 7th June 1944. The Brigade was then to fight its way across Europe along side the 7th Armoured Division ending up between Geesthacht and Hamburg in May 1945.

The Brigade was disbanded in March 1948 only to be reformed in 1981. The 4th Armoured Brigade was part of British Army in Germany, still wearing the "Black Rat" sign, as part of the 1st Armoured Division, but in 2007 it became 4th Mechanized Brigade.

So historically you could mark it up as 7th Armoured Division "Red Rats" with the 77 for Anti-Tank Regiment Royal Artillery, because the "65th Anti tank Regt. RA (Norfolk Yeomanry)" was part of the division, the carrier would carry the 7th Armoured Div sign and the 77 for anti-tank, viola,,there you have it.. And the markings I have seen in numerous sizes from 9X9 to 12X12 to 14X14...

[kevin powles]

Hi, Thanks so much for the reply, I am only a novice when it comes to correct military history. I have attached a picture of the marking i will use for the 7th armoured division.

[tankbarrell]

Why not paint it in the markings of a unit that did use them? Did they see action at all?

I'm not a fan of spurious markings myself. Now your mortar carrier, that could have been at Normandy!

[kevin powles]

Hi Adrian, I have not seen any pictures of these in service, i only have pictures of them marked with the TL number and bridging plate number, and EE on the side, i figure these pictures were taken whilst they were under test.

I would like to put both carriers in the same markings. You are right about keeping the markings correct, you may well have talked me round, but the marking i have seen have no identity and sture up no feelings of nostalgia.

One thing is for sure markings can always be changed later.

Your Sherman looked good in the sand yesterday!.

kevin.

[tankbarrell]

Kevin,

you are correct, markings can always be changed but......

It is a tricky one, personally I am in favour of original markings only or appropriate as the next best thing but that is just my opinion. Far be it from me to tell anyone what to do with their own vehicles!

The lack of unit markings on my Sherman doesn't seem to stem any feelings of nostalgia though!

Malcolm told me you couldn't make it with the carrier as intended, hope you get it sorted soon. It looked good at Henham. You should have come over, I would have taken you for a spin round the playpen!

[lssah2025]

It could possibly be marked up part of a Motor Company (rifle company) they had a carrier/recce platoon. It is like trying to find markings for a T16, we know they were used, but by who, most units say they have .....carriers in service, but didn't say Bren, T16 etc.