25-pdr in Korea

servicepub (RIP) · #1 08-09-08, 04:18

Thought that the gunners would like this shot of a 25-pdr at extreme elevation for an indirect shot. Photo taken by a young RCEME Captain in Korea.

Keith Webb · #2 08-09-08, 10:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by servicepub

Thought that the gunners would like this shot of a 25-pdr at extreme elevation for an indirect shot. Photo taken by a young RCEME Captain in Korea.

Excellent image Clive but the gun tractor owners would be even more excited to see the towing vehicle!

lynx42 · #3 08-09-08, 10:36

Don't know about that Keefy, we 25pdr owners don't see shots like that very often. (no pun intended).
It's a great photo.
Rick

Keith Webb · #4 08-09-08, 10:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by lynx42

Don't know about that Keefy, we 25pdr owners don't see shots like that very often. (no pun intended).
It's a great photo.
Rick

Perhaps you'll change your view once you're an arty tractor owner too!

lynx42 · #5 08-09-08, 10:57

I am, C60S, WO-78 mean anything to you?

Keith Webb · #6 08-09-08, 11:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by lynx42

I am, C60S, WO-78 mean anything to you?

You may need to swap that howitzer for something which uses smaller ammo then.

Herb Danter (RIP) · #7 14-09-08, 20:29

I served on the 25 pdrs (self propelled) in Normandy and beyond in WW 11.
I have never seen one at this elevation before. That's ingenuity for you ( and probably Canadian)
Thanks for showing this.
Herb Danter

David_Hayward (RIP) · #8 14-09-08, 21:07

Excuse this child of the post-Korean war period and my ignorance but a) what would the horizontal range of a shell be with that elevation? and b) I assume that the idea is to 'drop' a shell onto a target rather like a mortar? Unless you were either blasting a mountainside or following from a) lobbing a shot over a hill?

Hanno Spoelstra · #9 15-09-08, 11:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by servicepub

shot of a 25-pdr at extreme elevation for an indirect shot.

It ties in nicely with the Canadian involvement in the development of the 25-pr Carriage for Upper Register Firing (ref. Modified 25-pounder guns). I wonder if the 25-pdr pictured here has the Mk.3 carriage (the one that hinges in the middle)?

Hanno

Tony Smith · #10 15-09-08, 16:16

Poses the interesting question: If they dug that (Korean) hole any deeper, would they end up in China?

David, the range of the shell is a function of the angle of the barrel and the Muzzle Velocity of the projectile. There are a variety of Projectiles available for the 25pdr, and each of these have varying weights which affect their MV. The 25pdr (and many other Field Artillery pieces and Naval guns) has the infinitely useful ability to vary not only the angle but also velocity by the use of multiple charge bags of propellant, being Charge 1, Chg 2, Chg 3, and Super Charge. The normal range of the 25pdr is between 100yds and 13,500yds, depending on the charge and elevation, but sorry to say, an elevation as shown does NOT appear in the Range Tables, but I'm sure Herb or Gunner would tell us it would be quite feasible for a switched-on GPO to calculate using MV, angle of barrel, height difference between gun and target, etc.

Herb Danter (RIP) · #11 15-09-08, 17:18

Hi Tony:
Greetings from Canada. Referring to my gun drill manual, nothing is listed showing an extreme elevation as displayed in the photograph.
I think the GPO just gave the orders to load and fire.Charge 1 is usually used for the howitzer effect. The target must have been very close because at that trajectory there would be no arc of fire. (That's if the gun even fired at that elevation.)
Cheers
Herb

Herb Danter (RIP) · #12 15-09-08, 17:46

Hi David:
Greetings from Canada:
I have no idea what the horizontal range would be ( if any).It wouldn't be very great. I wonder if it was even fired in that position.
Cheers
Herb

Herb Danter (RIP) · #13 15-09-08, 18:11

Hi Hanno:
Greetings from Canada. I doubt if the gun had a split trail. I would like to see some action shots and record where the shell landed.
In my gun drill manual there is no mention of using this method for the howitzer effect.
Of course we Canadians were an "inventive" lot. WE would throw all the gun drill manuals away once we were "in action" and just rely on the "tactical situation" and initiative.
Regards
Herb

servicepub (RIP) · #14 16-09-08, 02:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Herb Danter

I have no idea what the horizontal range would be ( if any).It wouldn't be very great. Cheers, Herb

Here is what the gun crew was aiming at! Obviously the gun crew did not like this truck and were determined to take it out at any cost. Not wanting to take the easy way out the crew has chosen to use indirect fire.

(with apologies to Herb Danter and Gunners everywhere - you too Mike)

Wayne Henderson · #15 16-09-08, 06:56

Great shot, caught at full recoil. At that angle they might be Duck hunting,
a bit of improvising perhaps, I would have driven back a couple of miles and dug a shallower hole... Aussie gunners could chuck a shell further than where that round will land.

Hanno Spoelstra · #16 16-09-08, 10:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Herb Danter

Hi Hanno:
Greetings from Canada. I doubt if the gun had a split trail. I would like to see some action shots and record where the shell landed.
In my gun drill manual there is no mention of using this method for the howitzer effect.
Of course we Canadians were an "inventive" lot. WE would throw all the gun drill manuals away once we were "in action" and just rely on the "tactical situation" and initiative.
Regards
Herb

Hi Herb,

Thanks for your expert view on this. It shows the Canadians were always trying to make things work for maximum effect.

Groeten uit Holland!
Hanno

Gunner · #17 16-09-08, 19:34

HI Guys:

I'm still looking form my firing tables (my library is a disaster right now) but based on the angle and a low charge (as Herb suggested- charge 1 is likely) the range is only a couple of klicks. My bet is there was a high value target on the reverse slope of the ridge in front of the gun. It may have been that the range slightly exceeded that of the 81mm mortars so the gun was dug into the very odd gun pit!

Unusual that the tractor is parked in front of the gun unless it is to screen the view of the gun from the ridge. The muzzle brake appears to be painted in red oxide primer which is also odd.

Clive: do any other photos from that series show any other guns? I suspect that this is a sniping gun task on a programmed shoot. I wonder where the observer was?

P.S.: Guns have "detachments", tanks and ships have "crews"!

Mike

servicepub (RIP) · #18 16-09-08, 21:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gunner

P.S.: Guns have "detachments", tanks and ships have "crews"!

Mike

Mike,

As an infantryman it was the most polite term I could come up with...

These two photos were the only ones available. Too bad.

Hanno Spoelstra · #19 16-09-08, 22:03

Could it be some sort of test? It's the only gun in sight!

H.

RHClarke · #20 16-09-08, 23:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gunner

HI Guys:...It may have been that the range slightly exceeded that of the 81mm mortars so the gun was dug into the very odd gun pit!...I suspect that this is a sniping gun task on a programmed shoot.

I think we can rule out sniping gun tasks -this looks too contrived for that. The gun pit looks purpose-built for shoots beyond the normal upper register. This makes me think that they were testing something rather than delivering hot steel on enemy targets. Perhaps there was a recoil problem they were investigating? Perhaps they were testing a new fuze shell combo and wanted to see the terminal effects without venturing into enemy rifle range?

David_Hayward (RIP) · #21 17-09-08, 10:04

I do hope that there were no US forces there in the way.

There is a lovely 25-pdr at the Tower of London that I photographed..a beautiful piece. The caption said that the last use by the Britrish was in 1972 in Oman by the SAS. The gun was used as a saluting gun until 2001.

Herb Danter (RIP) · #22 17-09-08, 15:15

Many Thanks David. I would very much like to use this picture on our website.
I belong to the Limber Gunners Association c/o 7th Toronto Regiment RCA and we are building a new website. We are an Association dedicated to maintaining and displaying a restored WW II & Korean War 25 pdr.for the Regiment.( I served the 25 pdrs in WW II - Normandy & beyond)
My "e"mail address is hdanter@rogers.com.
Thanks again
Cheers
Herb

CWO (ret) Gilles Aubé · #23 17-09-08, 15:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by David_Hayward

I do hope that there were no US forces there in the way.

There is a lovely 25-pdr at the Tower of London that I photographed..a beautiful piece. The caption said that the last use by the Britrish was in 1972 in Oman by the SAS. The gun was used as a saluting gun until 2001.

Yes it is beautifull!!!
Does someone has the description of the dragropes that are fitted on the howitzer?

David_Hayward (RIP) · #24 17-09-08, 18:52

Hi-res supplied direct!

CWO (ret) Gilles Aubé · #25 22-09-08, 13:02

David Hayward, could you be me explicit?

David_Hayward (RIP) · #26 22-09-08, 13:13

I sent Herb a high-resolution copy direct. With compliments!

Best wishes,

Gunner · #27 26-09-08, 20:20

Gilles:

I have one sample and am costing out what it would be to have them made by a chap that does alot of maritime ropework.

They are available in the UK at about 30-40 quid (60 to 80 bucks) which isn't bad until you figure in shipping as they each weigh in at about 25 pounds!

I need one more for the 25 pounder, two for the 17 pounder and two for the 6 pounder (they were, as best I can deternine, the same for all guns.) I'll probably get two for the 40 mm Bofors as well, although I can't remember if they are on the tool kit list.

The hardest part will be the hooks as they are a special item, long and slim with a slot for the leather keeper.

I'll let you know what I learn on the cost side of things.

Mike

CWO (ret) Gilles Aubé · #28 27-09-08, 18:31

OK GUNNER let me know of anny finding.
In the mean time we will use regular hooks, but I still need the rope lenght.

If you want I could post a picture of a dragrope assembly that I have received from the Artillery Museum in Shilo Manitoba.

Rob Fast · #29 16-01-14, 20:01

Any originals available for my 17 Pounder? Cheers Rob in Manitoba

motto · #30 20-01-14, 21:56

What occurs to me about the practicality of that very high angle shot is the attitude of the projectile when it returned to earth. The gyroscopic effect due to spin does not reduce anywhere as rapidly as forward velocity and would, I believe, result in the projectile coming down base first. Presumably HE would be needed to have any effect on a target and the question arrises as to whether it would even detonate if impacting base first.
A mortar has tail fins and lack of spin to ensure arriving nose first.
IMHO firing a 25 pdr in the attitude depicted is no more than a stunt and of no practical use.
There used to be a fellow that was involved in ballistic testing and development of artillery during WW2 that wrote a column for a shooters magazine here in Oz. As part of the testing vertical firing for projectile recovery was carried out. The projectiles were arriving base first and so my doubts about results in this case.

David