The "Z Arm" on CDN Jeeps

[r.morrison]

Gentlemen: Throwing this out for your 2 cents......our group has a 1967 CDN 2 Jeep. Having served in Cyprus, our question is, were these units equipped with "Z Arms" to mount a Browning 1919, or for that matter a Bren Gun. Had a little chat with Rob Love and he thinks not. We have an original here and are thinking of making a couple of repro's. Your historical comments would be welcomed. Cheers......Robert

[rob love]

Not sure where my copy of the installation CFTO went, but I am almost certain it mentioned installation in M38A1s which were in use by militia recce only. I only got to Cypress in 89 and by then we had gone over to the Iltis and in fact withdrew them from service and had converted over to the Pajero fleet of 1/4 tons. Someone here might prove me wrong and show a photo of a Cdn UN Jeep with the side mount, but I don't recall ever seeing one. There is a photo on the net of one from the Ont R museum, but I suspect that jeep is a bit of a fantasy piece.

My own thoughts on it are that if you regularly need a machine gun on a jeep, then you need to replace your jeep with a piece of armour. I believe history has shown me to be correct on this matter.

[Frank v R]

Hi Rob, you would be correct in your comment on the OntR A1 , I do know that the vehicle does NOT have UN history, and the wrong radio (C-42), I have plans to install a dual 524 setup , the museum only had the 42 set when this vehicle was restored, I want to bring more to spec for the mission, I will need 2 of the base plates for under the power tray , Rob please let me know if you can dig some up, as for producing the GPMG arm and pintle I know with a wanted ad here you will come up with some, beware though, there are 2 different ID OD on the pintles and arms, get measurements from the seller first , I would guess this happened due to different shops producing them,

[rob love]

Frank
I'll have a look at my favorite scrapyard, hopefully this weekend. I have pulled a lot of them out of there, but I fear it may be reaching the end of supply. I'll let you know.

Seems to me MLU may have discussed that these were available at Niagara military surplus at one point.

[r.morrison]

Hi Rob ....you're right about the armour part. I checked what photos I could dig up here at home and on the web. One I found from Sarajevo was in reference to a Canadian Iltis, with an M60 mounted on the roll bar, gunner standing in the rear seat area. The other was from the Suez area and although it's very far away, you can see the barrel of a Bren Gun coming out from that area. Can't tell whether there's a mount or not. We'll just keep looking and try and contact a couple of local vets.
Thanks for your help thus far.....Robert

[Frank v R]

further on mounts, the CF did have the M31 and M31C mounts in the M-38cdn and the M-38A1 cdn , some of these came out of Pet. surplus and went south about 10-15 years ago, I have seen photos of these installed in Germany, now back to the side mount , cover photo of Clive's book on the M-38A1 , Queens own had a Reg. Force Battalion at that point stationed out west I believe , that would make that vehicle part of Reg. Force, opinions?

[rob love]

Sometimes vehicles would get moved around on VMOs, and the arm may have followed one through that route.

I was tasked over to couger support Sqn in Gagetown back in 1980, and in support of a res-0 course, was issued a M151A2 with the side arm. That was kind of unique since the arm should not have been on a M151A2 (metal was deemed too light) nor on a regular force Jeep.

[maple_leaf_eh]

Originally Posted by rob love

Not sure where my copy of the installation CFTO went, but I am almost certain it mentioned installation in M38A1s which were in use by militia recce only.
...

I opened my file folder called "M38A1 GPMG". The CFTO C-30-102-000/CJ-004 "Installation Instruction GPMG Mount on Truck, Utility 1/4-Ton, 4x4 M38A1, CDN2 and CDN3", is dated 21 Mar 75. The pages I have, do not differentiate which users received this item.

[r.morrison]

So Gentlemen......given this discussion (with a wee bit of wireless side line) would we be safe to say that the unit could have been/should have been/possibly /maybe....equipped with a Z Arm Gun Mount. It's neither here nor there to me. Having a look under the cowling, it doesn't look like there was one originally installed.
For what ever aspect comes out of this....we are thinking of having a couple of units made. We have the exterior mounting plate and the arm it self, but no ammo box attachment (ie: Rob Loves photos of Browning 1919 unit in the "for sale" section of this forum).
Anyone interested in one? Have not figured out cost and shipping at this point.
Will keep you posted and thanks to all who have contributed to this question....Robert

[rob love]

Originally Posted by r.morrison

So Gentlemen......given this discussion (with a wee bit of wireless side line) would we be safe to say that the unit could have been/should have been/possibly /maybe....equipped with a Z Arm Gun Mount.

I think you would be safer to say that a UN jeep in Cypress would not have/should not have, never had the GPMG swing arm. Without some photographic evidence, or at a minimum some anecdotal evidence, then you are just making another fantasy piece.

The ammo tray is also a fantasy item. I put one on my own Jeep, and it was because the M1919 I shoot uses 8x63mm. Since it comes in a larger box than the standard 7.62 NATO can, I had to make a tray to support the larger box. Normally a NATO can hooks onto the support bar on the side of the arm and is kept there by a 1' wide cargo strap.

On the one I recently sold, I think a previous owner liked my idea and copied it. It is certainly much more secure than having the can bouncing off the side of the standard mount.

[Ed Storey]

Thank you Rob for setting the record straight! Primary documentation, photographs, should be the preferred basis of any historically correct reconstruction and not the all too common; could have been/should have been/perhaps/maybe/I like it that way because it is different, fantasy reconstruction method.

Anecdotal evidence is always problematic as there are already too many stories that start with "my Grandmother's best friend's bingo partner once told me that she heard from the garbage man that he saw...."

Fantasy pieces, although perhaps great ego booster for the owner, in the end only muddy the waters when it comes to accurately preserving and recording these vehicles for future generations to enjoy.

So, a photograph of a 'Z' arm on a Canadian UN Jeep will answer the question, until then - fantasy piece.

[David Dunlop]

Expanding on one of the photos Rob Love posted earlier, here is a pair of UN Cdn jeeps in service in Cyprus and neither of them is MG equipped. Plates on the vehicles front to rear are: 08924 and 08929. Photo is from "MUSKETS TO MISSILES".


David

[Scott Bentley]

Granted they are US M151A1s loaned to the Canadians, but they do have C5s mounted (not on Z Arms mind you) on a UN Operation (UNEF). Is there where the confusion started I wonder?

[rob love]

Originally Posted by David Dunlop

Expanding on one of the photos Rob Love posted earlier, here is a pair of UN Cdn jeeps in service in Cyprus and neither of them is MG equipped. Plates on the vehicles front to rear are: 08924 and 08929. Photo is from "MUSKETS TO MISSILES".


David

Interesting that all three M38A1s in UN colours shown in this thread are late CFR Cdn3s. They are 08912, 08924 and 08929.

CFRs 08919 and 09049 also were UN jeeps according to photos posted over on Clive's Ramtank.ca site. http://ramtank.ca/m38a1list5.htm

Note the Cdn 3 CFRs ended at 09095.

[rob love]

Originally Posted by Frank v R

further on mounts, the CF did have the M31 and M31C mounts in the M-38cdn and the M-38A1 cdn , some of these came out of Pet. surplus and went south about 10-15 years ago, I have seen photos of these installed in Germany, now back to the side mount , cover photo of Clive's book on the M-38A1 , Queens own had a Reg. Force Battalion at that point stationed out west I believe , that would make that vehicle part of Reg. Force, opinions?

Attached is the photo of the Jeep in question. The Jeep is an early 53 Cdn, so would have been disposed of no later than the time that Terry's CFTO is dated. As well, note the older 30-06 ammo can. That gun may proceed the C1 gun. Perhaps the mount is a locally fabricated mount.

Credit for the photo is from Clive's site. He has it in the Cdn3 section for some reason.

[chris vickery]

I have 53-33136 in my collection.
It has been covered elsewhere but is unusual in the fact that it is an Amercian Willys with a CDN CFR number, an early aquisition and close to the serial as shown on Robs post.
My question is, who can confirm the colour pattern as shown? It appears to me as tan over OD with maybe black at the bottom. Would love to reproduce this cam pattern on mine...

[Eric B]

Painting it in the Norwegian camouflage would make a unique vehicle.

If the M38A1's are 1953 CDN 1, they did have Bren gun mounts attached to the dash on earlier UN deployments. But these vehicles were generally UN provided vehicles, which were modified.

Thanks
Eric

[rob love]

That photos is not of a Cdn1. There are no hinges on the front grill....rather it has the later method of grill attachment at one center mounting point.

I always hated undoing that particular bolt when pulling an engine. The next worse was removing the cable that ran from the crossmember through the bellhousing.

[chris vickery]

Sooo, back to my question. Any ideas on the Norwegian camo pattern?

[rob love]

Not from me. It pre-dates the standard Cdn Jeep cam patterns which came out in the 70s.

[maple_leaf_eh]

In the 60s there was a TV show called the Rat Patrol which featured Jeeps and mounted machine guns, and the characters would win the war for the good guys by shooting up the bad guys. For a while, that was a lot of peoples' cultural reference for mounted MGs. The late 70s was no different.

In the reserves we thought putting a C1 "GPMG" on a Jeep was fun but not necessarily as easy to use as it first appears. In the end it was a way to make noise on exercise, and a way to carry the gun and ammo on battle runs at Gun Camps. But at least someone thought about us.

I saw two different improvised weapons mounts in my time. One was to wire an old Lee Enfield sighting tripod into the Jeep and (insecurely) attach an FNC2 as a noisemaker. The clamps didn't fit the C2 handguard very well. The legs got in the way of using the back seat and radios. And, the 30-rd magazine meant the firer had to cant the gun to the side. Not a stellar solution.

The other was a one-of-a-kind that I plan to reproduce for my M38A1 CDN3. It resembles the one in the pictures with the BREN. A fellow had welded one up or borrowed it off someone. Take the windshield off. Imagine a piece of steel angle with hinge pins and tiedown levers that fitted onto the cowl in its place. There is a rifle butt clamp on the right end and a vertical piece of 3/4" pipe about 6" high in the middle. Attach about a 12" long 1/2" pipe section to the middle of the C2 barrel with hose clamps. Clip the butt into the clip, and poke the male/female pipe sections together. When it was time to make noise, swing the gun to the front and fire left-handed over the hood.