M72 law

[Robin Craig]

I would like to start some discussion on various aspects of this weapon as it relates to it's use within the CF in the 1970's and possession now of a spent case.

So, lets start with these questions:-

- were they issued on exercise in a "drill purpose" format?
- what types of units and vehicle crews would have they been issued to?
- what were the markings seen on them in the above format?

- is the empty case having been fired considered inert and consequently not a weapon of any kind?

my purpose is to better understand if a CF Ferret crew would possibly have had them issued on exercise and is there any provenance to that effect.

[rob love]

Many many of the CF vehicles had the brackets for them, but I suspect that outside of perhaps Germany, 99.9% of the brackets never held anything.

While there was a subcaliber kit available for the LAWs, it was not the kind of thing you would use on ex. And to have a spent tube issued would have been useless, it would have required the crew to make a rocket noise and go bang at the end........ While I can attest to having to go "bang bang bang" during a few austere excercises with rifles (and it was always embarrassing) , I never saw it done with M72s.

There were two training versions of the M72 that I saw: spent tubes that were painted blue and stencilled "dummy" for classroom training, and spent tubes that were set up for the sub-cal version used on the ranges to cut costs. I have some portions of the blue painted ones out in the shed.

The ferret could have the M72 bracket mounted on the outside of the hull. I can't recall if it was on the spare tire side or the opposite.

There was a time that I recall Crown Surplus in Calgary had a barrel of spent tubes for sale at some reasonable price. But that was a long time ago. Any "salvage" is supposed to be turned in these days, and the ammo techs take care of the destruction. So possession of a spent tube dated in the past 20 years would be hard to justify it's legal acquisition. While perhaps it is not a weapon, it seems the police always love showing them off to the media when they capture them during their various raid.

[maple_leaf_eh]

Originally Posted by rob love

...

There were two training versions of the M72 that I saw: spent tubes that were painted blue and stencilled "dummy" for classroom training, and spent tubes that were set up for the sub-cal version used on the ranges to cut costs. I have some portions of the blue painted ones out in the shed.

...

The training ones I remember were spent tubes for practising the drills. The closure step was always risky, because the plastic front sight has to be held folded down. Invariably the teenager doing the drill missed the housing, and smashed the sight to pieces.

Fired tubes are supposed to be broken or burnt. I have seen plenty of old tubes that were never properly destroyed. But like Rob says we have many police and Crown Attorneys who know nothing about firearms except A) they are bad when owned by civilians, B) should only be available to the Police, and C) less of A is good and more of B is better.

[Martin Dauphinais]

Let's try an answer in my poor painful English!

Were they issued on exercise in a "drill purpose" format?

In the Infantry, yes. In my regiment (R22eR) we were carrying them on a regular basis after 9/11. Before that, in the mid-1990's we had them in the QM but were using them only to get the annual qualification on this weapon. This mean, opening the tube and understand how the trigger was working. Closing the tube was the time consuming part of the exercise and totally useless because in the real world, you just drop it down and smash it with your feet. It was to avoid the enemy to use the tube, like it happened in Vietnam where the Americans realized the Vietcong were using the empty tubes as improvised mortars. Nowadays, we use spent tubes all the time. In fact, they are consider section weapons and each section carry 2 spent M72 with a gold band painted on them. I never saw any M72 painted in blue but I'm much younger than the ones who already comment this thread. I much prefer carrying the green ones. The funny thing is when we are conducting an exercise with M72, some of our guys are mimic the sound of the rocket when they fire… that the funniest part of the exercise. It's always the time you can see how creative are the guys… Having said that, the M72 that we are using today, are slightly longer than the one I used at the beginning of my career and if someone should add one to a Ferret, you have to look for the early model, not the one used today. The one you need is glossy dark green in color and shorter than the actual "not glossy" (Damn it, what is the word in English… "mate" to describe the non-glossy paint?!) olive green. I could add much more details… but I'm in the rush this morning…

What types of units and vehicle crews would have they been issued to?

I can't talk for the others… not aware how it what used by the armored or artillery units. As I said, when we had the M-113, we were using the bracket to hold everything except the M72. We were using them very rarely. The CAF were supposed to get rid of this weapon but like many other things, Afghanistan, change the situation. At some times, the guys were carrying if not at least one, they were having two M72 rigged on their backpack. The M72 was very useful against the earth walls in this part of the world. So today, the LAVs are holding spent cases in their brackets. So, during Cold War, almost all the armored vehicles had the brackets to carry the M72, M-113, Grizzly, Cougar and many more. The only Ferret I saw, is the one in front of the 12RBC in Valcartier that I would steal to make it up and running…

What were the markings seen on them in the above format?

The markings on the real ones, early model, was very straight forward and exactly identical to the american ones used in Vietnam except for the instruction sticker where we were able to see one added with French written instructions. Other this sticker, no difference at all with the american model. The new model it's almost the same thing, no special markings. The training tube that were all spent cases were kept in the original coloration but with a gold band painted on the extremities. Obviously, the tubes are empty and weight almost nothing. They are very annoying to carry because the bounce and swing everywhere. Sometimes, people are having good ideas of filling them with sand, to make it heavy like a live one. Once the tube is used, the caps are unsealed and they hold in place less tightly than a real one. We were ended up with sand all the place and we were braking the caps. So, we use them empty now…

Is the empty case having been fired considered inert and consequently not a weapon of any kind?

I already answered partly to this one at the beginning. From technical point of view, this is a one-time-use weapon. When it is opened, you have to fire it. If you have to refold the tube because you decide to nit use it, you better to use on a short period of time to avoid malfunction. The tube is factory sealed, once open, humidity could affect the rocket and create a misfire. Once the weapon has been fired, it is done. You can't reload it. The Vietcong were firing 60mm mortar shell in this 66mm diameter tube… why not, 6 mm is nothing after all… but on 1000 yards, I'm not quite sure of the precision of it! Many cases are available on the market and can be buy for way too much dollars from my point of view. However, they are legal to acquire, no issue. The only one that we can use more than once is the sub caliber that fire a small rocket that looks like a huge slug with a inert steel head. The caliber is 21mm and not quite accurate. In fact, I consider it a bit useless because it does not replicate the "bang" (which can be impressive), the feeling of a real rocket and the accuracy. It is something create to "give" the impression of and to induce some kind of safety skill because it is, at least, a real rocket.

So, I'm already late… if you have anymore questions about it, feel free to ask!

Martin

[Lynn Eades]

Martin, the word is "matt" for flat paint. Your post is very good!, very informative!. I understand. Your English is fine. Had you written it in French, I would not understand one word.
Thank you!

[Ryan Harriman]

Spent LAW tubes are perfectly legal to own and once fired are concidered to be scrap as per the FRT.

Once and a while you'lol see a batch of scrap smashed ones for sale on gcsurplus.

Ryan

[Robin Craig]

All great responses and thank you.

The one response that comes through loud and clear both from the PMs I have received and the posting from knowledgeable people like Ryan is that they are legal to own.

Thank you all

[chris vickery]

Martin, it is interesting that you mention use by the VC in Vietnam.
I was recently at a show in the US and a guy there had an example of a captured M72 tube which had been modified into a launcher. The Vietnamese were very creative in using America's discards in any way possible. Even empty tin cans became the basis for rudimentary booby traps by inserting a grenade inside tied to a tripwire.

[rob love]

Afghanistan was not a lot different. The engineers re-enforced the requirement that when we scrapped anything electrical, the wire had to be cut up into very short pieces. The locals would salvage Canadian (or other coalition countries)wire from the KAF dump and use it in the IEDs against us.

[Martin Dauphinais]

I saw almost everything in Afghanistan… one guy made a piston out of wood log for an old russian truck. Pistol made with a pipe and two nails. An entire truck cab made in carved wood… this one was a real piece of art. At some point, they are like us 80 years ago. They have the time of doing everything. Us, we run after our own time. Technology is supposed to make our life easier but in fact we use it to make more things in one day.

They made one IED triggered electrically using 48 "dead" AA batteries (mostly all from canadian soldiers) and the 48 batteries were producing the very minimum of power to triggered the explosive. The "dead" battery pack was producing 1.8 volt.

In any asymmetrical conflict, the enemy is usually very smart and resourceful. Adding the fact that they know the terrain very well give them a certain advantage. They have the habit of making miracles out of nothing, so when we provide them half of the solution, they become better and better at their job.

[rob love]

Perhaps if we gave them all laptops and free internet, they would be so busy idling away they would not have had time for physical endeavours.

Got to go...work awaits in the attic.

[Jack Innes]

Robin,

The manual for the RAM prototype built in 1969 specifies a bracket for a LAW mounted behind the passenger seats indicating that it was in practice for Canadian vehicles to carry the weapon at that time . ( I need a bracket or pictures of one.)

Jack

[rob love]

Here is a photo of subject bracket. They could be found hiding on many vehicles.....in this case the troop seats of a M577 (M113 command post). I'll keep an eye at my favorite scrapyard for some of those seats. Seems like they were regularly thrown out.

NSN for the old bracket is 2540-21-116-6305 and dates back to 1968. It is still used on many vehicles in service, although there is a newer NSN from the early 2000s for a new one.

[Robin Craig]

I would be interested in a bracket Rob if you find a spare one, happy to pay for it.

[Jack Innes]

Thank you Rob,

I too would be interested in a bracket if you find some.

Jack

[Jes Andersen]

A few years ago, there was a big hubbub over someone finding am M72 in the ditch beside the only highway north from Victoria. The speculation was it was to be used in a gang related extermination but either was a dud or they chickened out and left it by the side of the road. A few unofficial reports circulated about having it waved about and shouldered until someone that was familiar with the weapon suggested that it still had the round in the tube. That ended the playing around. I don't recall all the rest of it but it apparently went 'missing' years before and remained unaccounted for until this incident.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2617577/posts