Unusual CMP Ambulance

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

http://clubs.hemmings.com/clubsites/...lancequery.jpg

This has me puzzled! Not that I am an expert in any way so I am easily puzzled. Note the Lindsay House-type body which is completely different from the C60L Ambulances to S/M 2574 and the F60L versions. Was this an 'Office' converted? The other Ambulance bodies had

By the way these any many more CMPs, DTs, Mack and a Federal will appear in a forthcoming pictorial book.

Compare the photo with the F30 Ambulance which was apparently not acquired by the UK unless they bought some for Australia. I have no evidence that there was a C30 version, just the C60L.

[gordon]

Could it be something medical, but not an ambulance?

I helped a fried rebuild a bedford 3 ton X-Ray truck which had a very similar look to it, so this thing could be x-ray, dental, surgical - anything really and based on an office body rather than an ambulance just for patient transport??

Gordon

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

I cannot tell chassis types from each other. Is this a C30? I lent my Gregg Volume 1 book out and so cannot check the Canadian body types...did the RCAMC have similar bodies as X-ray, Dental, Prophylactic purposes?

[Bill Murray]

Evening David:

In Dr. Gregg's Vol I page 70 is found "Lorry 3 Ton Dental" on C60L chassis. The photo is almost a dead ringer for your pic posted earlier.
Perhaps mystery is solved.
Bill

[Steve Guthrie]

Hi there

Here's an un-issued 3-ton Dental van.

Note the much smaller white disc for the Red Cross symbol.

These seemed to vary wildly in size from vehicle to vehicle and time period.

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

This must have been an ex-Canadian truck. Cheers guys but how can you readily tel the difference between a C30/60S and of course the Ford equivalants and a C60L/F60L just by looking at chassis? The 15 cwt chassis are much shorter except for the F60T.

[Bill Murray]

David:

I am not sure if I completely understand your query but basically the differences between S and L are the wheelbases,

134" for the S and 158 1/4" for the L.

The difference between the 30 and 60 models was, at least from an identification point of view, the wheel/tyre sizes.

The 30s had 10:60X16 sets and the 60s had 10:50X20 sets.

I am not that deep into technical stuff but it is also quite possible the 60s had different gear ratios and the like.

If that was your problem that should help I hope
Bill

[gordon]

The reference shots for some vehicle types have small red crosses as they tended to take reference shots of the first off.

In paractice people kept shooting at them, so red crosses in the field got larger and larger.... Production line cross sizes were probably made bigger as a result of feedback later on.

Gordon

[Keith Webb]

Originally posted by Bill Murray
I am not that deep into technical stuff but it is also quite possible the 60s had different gear ratios and the like.

The diff ratios were different depending on tyre size so the road speeds were consistent between models, although today people often gear their CMPs up fitting 12.00 20 tyres to a 15 CWT which makes quite a difference to cruising speed, and also involves earlier shiftdowns on hills.

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

..thanks but what I was after was how you can tell the difference easily from photos. Bigger wheels differentiate the 30-cwt and 3-tonners evidently, but we then have the difference in chassis lengths. The L chassis seem to have a spare wheel behind the cab?

[Bill Murray]

Evening David:

Due to time constraints, only a partial answer to some of your queries.

According to the AEDB book and it's photos, it would seem all of the C-F60S variants had the spare tyre somewhere inside the body (depending on the load etc.) except for the 3 ton dump on the short chassis which had the spare between the dump body and the back of the cab in a vertical position.

As to the L versions, most of the photos that show cab 11 & 12 seem to also have the spare mounted inside somewhere. Most of the Cab 13 variants have the spare mounted vertically between the body and the cab. Exceptions I have noted are the ATP and some of the Machinery Truck variants which are Cab 13s but have the spare inside as well. I just noticed as well that a couple Cab 13s have the spare mounted horizontally under the body.

Give me a little time and I can list every type of body and where the spare is for the whole series of C-F60S & L.

Sadly, that will still not help when you have less than a full side view and the body type is not specifically identified.

Then, you punt and guess which I hate as much as you do.

On the other hand, we could be dealing with trying to ID German vehicles, especially conscripted civilian and booty vehicles.

I do ID stuff for a lot of European forums and it drives me bloody bonkers sometimes. I may have to refer to a dozen books and piles of photos before I get a hit. At least with "pure" CMPs, I only have to go to about three books and can usually get pretty close.

By the way, what is the status of the various books you are authoring? Are any on the market yet?
Cheers
Bill

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

Bill, I have sent for editing a small book on the CMD Slough. The main 'origin of CMP book' is with the publisher but has been held back by a pratt of the highest order who is writing small railway books. To the utter frustration of the rest of us! So I am proceeding now with the what was intended to be second book namely the pictorial on Pearsons of Liverpool which will head a series of other pictorials on British assembly in the UK, etc.

[Tony Smith]

Another indication is the rear drive shaft. On 134"WB vehicles it runs straight from output flange on the transfer case to the flange on the rear diff. On 158"WB vehicles it runs horizontally from the transfer case to a frame mounted bearing then angles down to the rear diff. It's not necessary to see more than a portion of the driveshaft to see where it's pointing to: either to a point near the rear of the cab, or to a point halfway along the chassis. This, of course won't help in trying to separate the 30cwt from a 60S.

BTW, David, it's the book filled with CMP pictures we would actually like to see first!

[Bill Murray]

Tony:

By the time we finish with David's lessons on how to identify the various permutations of these trucks he is going to wish he had never asked the question

I am going to try to pay him back for some of his 4 pagers with a listing from the AEDB book on what to look for.

Reminds me of some lists I made up, and lost, of ID tips. One I do remember is the difference between 1939 and 1940 Chev commercial trucks. The 1939 has 17 vertical bars in the grille and the 1940 has I think 12. Then you have to look at the badge on the grille if your photo does not allow you to count grille bars and determing the size of the lettering. The easiest tip was that the 39 had no park lights on the front wings and the 40 did but in practice many of these lights were removed or damaged and taken off so you had to go back to counting grille bars.

Next, we will have him counting rivets in the bodies.


Bill

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

I just rough-counted and there are about 50 CMP photos: wartime being assembled/assembled/being delivered and then wartime demob and finally post-war being awaiting rebuild/rebuilding/post-rebuild. There are also Dodge, Diamond T, Allis-Chalmers, Federal, Mack, Bedford, AEC, Leyland, FWD, etc. photos with some Canadian-order and the rest British-order with some ex-USA. Some are pretty spectacular!

CMPs are Chevrolet and Ford, plus Jeeps!

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

The 1939 and 1940 Chevrolet and GMC grilles were very similar in overall design but they did differ slightly between each respective Model Year. The 1940 Model Chevrolets had a wider top grille than the 1939 Models but it is so difficult to tell from period photos.

1939:


Other changes included the switch to the new for 1940 standard of "sealed beam" headlights. This change forced the parking lights to be moved to the top of the front fenders like the cars, but the headlights remained attached to the radiator uprights as before. This was the last year for that characteristic. The top bar was located higher in 1940 had red 'Chevrolet' script. It appears as though the 1939 Models had script but it was not painted. That said that was for US-assembled civilian trucks and military versions often had painted instead of chromed grilles. The number of bars seems to vary according to the cab size...1/2 ton compared with 1 ton and above.

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

There was also a Canadian Chevrolet Model 1543 CC60L 1940 Model Ambulance. When I can run off a low-res photo I will post same!

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

This is an example of the problem that I have with establishing whether a CMP is a C30/F30 or C60S/F60S!



The key I suppose is working out wheel size. So, for the $64 million answer, which chassis please?

[Keith Webb]

Originally posted by David_Hayward
This is an example of the problem that I have with establishing whether a CMP is a C30/F30 or C60S/F60S!
The key I suppose is working out wheel size. So, for the $64 million answer, which chassis please?

Well, it is the 134" wheelbase, and the main indicators for the capacity are the wheel size and light or heavy duty steering ends. In this case the 16" wheels would lead me to say C30, but you'd really need to see other pictures which reveal the steering ends to be sure.
Cab 12s of course all have small steering ends, so the main visual identifier is the wheel size.
Where do I claim the $64 million prize?

[Bill Murray]

I cry foul Keith!!!

We are getting our share of Hurricane Ivan and our power went out at the store before I got to post an answer.

T'would be a 30 by my reckoning. Is that a post war rego?
Doesn't look all that original to me but then I know a lot less about CMP vehicles than the modified conventional ones.

David, according to period catalogs I have, we agree on most points on 1939 vis a vis 1940 models. Just a further comment, on the 1939 grille the word Chevrolet was indeed painted red but was rather smaller than the 1940 script. As well, the 39 had a stylized band on either side of the script whereas the 40 had just a little line on each side.
The 1939 grille had 17 horizontal bars which were unpainted.
The 1940 grille had 14 horizontal bars, thicker than the 1939 and with a red stripe in the middle of each bar.

As you point out, military deliveries would most likely have had the grilles, bumpers etc. painted instead of chromed and "striped".

To go back a year, here is a Swedish "umbaeuwagen" used by the Swedish Red Cross in the first Finnish war. Sory, the text is mutilated but it was converted from a bread van.
Bill

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

1 Those Ambulance Chevs were assembled in the GM Nordoska Plant in Stockholm!

2. Herewith military Chevs...1940 WA Panel Vans..note number of grille bars! Yes I did count them! I think that the 1-ton and up cab had a higher hood line than the 1/2 to 3/4 ton but a parts list will confirm. It's still less in '40 than '39 in either case.

!

3. The 1939 and 1940 GMCs had similar diferences to each other as per Chev but there were less and thicker bars than Chevs. Now, what was the case with Maple Leaf?? That's for the future. Maple Leafs should have 'Maple Leaf' on the hood side where 'General Motors Truck' is located on GMCs BUT we know that Canadian military MLs and GMCs seem to have had this deleted as already discussed in another thread, and seems to have been deleted from some military GMCs out of Pontiac, Michigan. I guess that as with paint instead of chrome the military trucks had 'delete' options to save cents on the final f.o.b. tag! Maple Leaf trucks from the Chevrolet Heavy Duty whch was unique to Canada as clones of GMCs with Chevrolet engines, had a Maple leaf radiator badge from July 1930 onwards [Chev HD was badged 'Maple Leaf Truck' only from 1932] and I would be interested to be disproven that the military 1939-42 Model MLs still retained the same leaf motif though used the basic GMC grille. After all they were Canadian GMCs with Chevrolet, or Chevrolet-based engines.

4. We have a winner x 2! C30, and post-war rebuild....see the forthcoming book for more of these tippers including twin rear wheel conversions.

Let's see if we can dig up a suitable prize or two. Names have been noted!!

[Bill Murray]

Ahhh David:
I believe we have two winners old chap.

Keith beat me to the type due to a "foul" and I was correct on the question of a post WWII rego.

That will now cost you the double so you had better get your various books into circulation so you can pay off your debts.

Bill

[Bill Murray]

Well David:

You are correct in that GM Nordiska did indeed put cabs and bodies on basic chassis and cowl imports from the US.

It is my impression, though, that the conversions from whatever to ambulances were carried out by a very small number of Swedish coachworks.
Bill

[Keith Webb]

Originally posted by Bill Murray
Ahhh David:
I believe we have two winners old chap.

Keith beat me to the type due to a "foul" and I was correct on the question of a post WWII rego.

That will now cost you the double so you had better get your various books into circulation so you can pay off your debts.

Bill

I'm with Bill!

[Bill Murray]

Just for grins I will post a not good pic of another Swedish Chev, I have a better one filed somewhere but cannot seem to find it.
David, you count the grille bars

Bill

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

Bill, 1939 I think, and a Model VD with those twin rears. Note more bars on the 1-ton + cab and smaller top grille on the 1939. I have been trying to establish in recent months whether Chrysler had their Stockholm plant just before the war still.

I have a nice 1938 GM Nordiska 'anniversary' booklet' that I want to sell, in Swedish of course, with some nice photos showingn its location.

This is the CC60L 1940 Chevrolet Model 1543 ambulance:



Compare the body above with that fitted to the CMP in this unique shot! The photo was taken in the spring of 1940 allegedly, and was outside the Canadian Mechanization Depot in Southampton. I think that this may be right but I favour October 1940 when a movie film was made of the assembly processes.

It is of course a convoy of newly-assembled CMPs. The left and centre columns are Chevrolets...C60L on left? The centre trucks are C15s I think and the ambulance is said to be a F60L. However is that a C15 personnel carrier with the light canvas canopy? In the extreme background are possibly F60H trucks.



I apologise for the bandwith and size of the photo but such it is such a valuable photo to me, having written the story of the first CMD in Southampton, that I ask the Powers That be to excuse me for once.

May I add that this photo was taken in the storage area adjacent to the CMD, where there was also an oval-shaped test track for newly-assembled vehicles to be tried out. It was from that hardstanding in the photo on the evening of Friday 30 November 1940, amongst falling bombs, that a team of RCOC men led by an officer achieved a miraculous rescue of all of the vehicles stored outside awaiting delivery. The team had driven from Bordon Camp near Aldershot and saved a large number of trucks. Regrettably over 200 vehicles, C60L and Chev sedans included, were destroyed by fire. Thank goodness no-one was killed or injured despite all the efforts of the ARP, company staff on fire duty and the RCOC personnel camped nearby to put out the flames.

[Bill Murray]

Morning David:

Well done on the Swedish Chev Ambulance, you win the prize for that one. I do have some books on Chrysler in Sweden in the cellar but it got flooded from the storm last night (no damage to archives just tons of water). When I get it cleaned up I will try to help out. SAAB ANA was a subsidiary of SAAB-Scania and were the Chrysler General Agent for Sweden, may still be, and did a couple of history books dealing with that business.

I will also try to post more Chev ambulance photos from various countries of the same period on this thread.
Bill

[Lars Ulvestad]

David,

Very interesting photo, the ambulance body looks more like a modified British Mann Egerton-type ambulance body than like a Canadian Lindsay-type ambulance body.

Do you have any more information about the ambulance?

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

Lars, basically Dr Gregg or Bart V stated that the chassis was a Ford with British-built body. Your suggestion makes sense because these earliest CMPs were imported as either chassis-cabs or equipped with Canadian bodies. The former required specialist bodies such as gantries and specifically ambulances because at the time there was no Canadian capability to produce 'specilist bodies'.

The authority for this is the DND papers which will form the basis of my book. However the side effect of this is that apart from the Canadian High Commission having to purchase in Sterling British trucks such as Bedfords before Canadian orders came through the assembly process, and after the losses for instance of the 50 F15s in France, the HC also purchased bodies from coachbuilders in the UK. The monies received were then funnelled back through the Treasury to purchase essential foodstuffs and also warlike materials from North America.

The only direct evidence I have come across so far of any British coachbuilders contracting directly with the Canadian Military HQ is in the 2 (Overseas) Detachment War Diary for 1940 which states that amongst other companies overload production from the Southampton CMD was taken on by Duple Motors and Bodies Limited in The Hyde, Hendon, London which was literally just a short distance away from the General Motors Limited former assembly plant that was in 1940 partly occupied by Frigidaire Limited and partly by Vauxhall Motors Limited as an export then import boxing/unboxing facility. We know that Duples bodied CMPs to British order, and I suspect that that they bodied Canadian and then British order G/S CMPs, as I just cannot see that they did any assembly work. From memory the earliest Canadian CMP bodies were from people such as Brantford who produced the protoype F15 G/S body as well as bodies for the pilot Chevrolets, and Gotfredson who produced FAT bodies. However I am by no means an expert on Canadian bodies and defer to those experts who know what they are talking about!

[Lars Ulvestad]

David,

I have an unrestored Austin K2Y ambulance (modified with side-doors in the cab while in service in the norwegian occupation brigade in Germany (under command of BAOR) in late 40's/early 50's). It was surplused in the mid-60's. The ambulance body of the K2Y (made by Mann Egerton) looks very similar to the one on the F60L.

On the F60L it looks like the front end of the ambulance body still have the door which on the Austin(or Bedford ML/Morris-Commercial CS11/30F) opens into the cab intact - the window in the door is visible over the F60L cab roof.

I enclose a picture of my K2Y (together with parts of a 1943 SM 6050 C15)