MLU FORUM  

Go Back   MLU FORUM > MILITARY VEHICLES > The Softskin Forum

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 30-08-04, 18:59
nox83 nox83 is offline
Noel
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 7
Default Identification Quizz

What's that?
http://www.network54.com/Forum/threa...eid=1093798478
picture come from Panzer units in the operations OZAK 1943-45 by Stefano Di Giusto
I need expert. Thanks in advance
Attached Images
 
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 31-08-04, 02:22
Steve Guthrie's Avatar
Steve Guthrie Steve Guthrie is offline
Greybeard Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Peterborough, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 281
Default What is it?

Hi there

It's got a British-style split rim wheel and tire at the front, like from a Bedford OY .

But it's no British armoured vehicle that I recognize.

Theatre-built?

Steve
__________________
WW2 Canadian Army Vehicle
Camouflage and Markings
http://milifax2003.tripod.com/home03.htm
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 31-08-04, 02:43
Bill Murray Bill Murray is offline
Dog Robber
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Kennesaw (Atlanta, Ga.), USA
Posts: 1,400
Default

Personally, I think Steve's first clue is the one to start on.
Let the chase begin.
Bill
__________________
Dog Robber Sends
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 31-08-04, 03:23
Steve Guthrie's Avatar
Steve Guthrie Steve Guthrie is offline
Greybeard Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Peterborough, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 281
Default Ok, here's a Bedford OYD (PIC)

Hi

What do you think about the wheel?



From 'World War Two Military Vehicles: Transport and Halftracks" by G.N.Georgano, published by Osprey Automotive, Bournmouth U.K. 1994
Attached Thumbnails
s_bedford2.jpg  
__________________
WW2 Canadian Army Vehicle
Camouflage and Markings
http://milifax2003.tripod.com/home03.htm
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 31-08-04, 10:54
nox83 nox83 is offline
Noel
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 7
Default one solution

What do you think about that?
a Rover Light armoured Car
http://www.network54.com/Forum/messa...eid=1093770798
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 31-08-04, 20:30
nox83 nox83 is offline
Noel
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 7
Default a better picture

if that can help you
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 31-08-04, 21:21
Richard Farrant's Avatar
Richard Farrant Richard Farrant is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Kent, England
Posts: 3,641
Default

Judging by the wheelbase it could be built on a Bedford MW 15cwt chassis, but not forgeting these wheels were used on other makes, could be a Morris Commercial CS8. The germans used a lot of them rebodied.

Richard
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 31-08-04, 21:54
nox83 nox83 is offline
Noel
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 7
Default the picture

Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 31-08-04, 23:32
Keith Webb's Avatar
Keith Webb Keith Webb is offline
Film maker, CMP addict
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: HIGHTON VIC
Posts: 8,218
Default Re: one solution

Quote:
Originally posted by nox83
What do you think about that?
a Rover Light armoured Car
http://www.network54.com/Forum/messa...eid=1093770798
You mean one of these critters?



Close, but I don't think so. The angle of the lower armour looks too sharp on the Rover, and it looks to be longer than the Rover too.

In fact, I don't believe these went outside Australia, but I could stand corrected.

http://www.oldcmp.net/rover_1.html
__________________
Film maker

42 FGT No8 (Aust) remains
42 FGT No9 (Aust)
42 F15
Keith Webb
Macleod, Victoria Australia
Also Canadian Military Pattern Vehicles group on Facebook
https://www.facebook.com/groups/canadianmilitarypattern
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 01-09-04, 22:03
nuyt's Avatar
nuyt nuyt is offline
Overvalwagen-o-logist
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: holland
Posts: 586
Default cossack overvalwagen!

Ok, seriously:
1. are we sure these pictures are really from WW2 and not made during the shooting of a WW2 film much later, featuring a mock up vehicle on Bedford chassis?
2. If these are original pictures then what do we know about
a - the theatre, b - the OZAK operations, c- the camo pattern, d- the troops (cossacks?)?

Greetings,
Nuyt
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 01-09-04, 22:22
nox83 nox83 is offline
Noel
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 7
Default yes I'm sure

The Operationszone Adriatisches Küstenland (OZAK, Operation Zone Adriatic Littoral) was created by the Germans after the Italian armistice of 8th September 1943. It was a large area that included the north-eastern border regions of Italy and parts of present Slovenia and Croatia.
Although it was a secondary war theatre, separated from the main battlefronts until the last phases of the conflict, the strategic importance of the region and the presence of a strong resistance movement forced the Germans to maintain a considerable military presence in the area, with a fairly large amount of tank units or units supported by armoured vehicles.

It's not a mock up vehicle on Bedford chassis for Z serie WW2 film, sorry

The Cossack National Movement of Liberation, which had the aim of rebuilding an independent Cossack state, fostered the recruiting of Cossacks for the fight against the Soviets. The summer of 1943 saw the formation of the 1st Cossack Division, under the command of the German general Helmut von Pannwitz. The division soon expanded into the 15th SS Cossack Cavalry Corps, which numbered some 50,000 men. Afterwards, two Cossack brigades and 12 Cossack reserve regiments formed, and a number of smaller units became attached to German formations. In all, Cossack troops on the German side numbered about 250,000 men.

Note that the granting of the "SS" status to the Cossack Corps came about through Himmler's policy, quite often applied, of barring the Wehrmacht's influence in the political concerns of non-German formations. The Germans used the Cossacks to fight Soviet partisans, to cover the rear of their armies, and sometimes for action on the front. Later on, some Cossack formations moved to France and to Yugoslavia

Sorry if the camouflage is so psychedelic
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 01-09-04, 22:29
Keith Webb's Avatar
Keith Webb Keith Webb is offline
Film maker, CMP addict
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: HIGHTON VIC
Posts: 8,218
Default Wheels and Tracks

I don't have the issue with me, but I seem to recall seeing something similar once in the mystery page of a Wheels and Tracks issue once.
__________________
Film maker

42 FGT No8 (Aust) remains
42 FGT No9 (Aust)
42 F15
Keith Webb
Macleod, Victoria Australia
Also Canadian Military Pattern Vehicles group on Facebook
https://www.facebook.com/groups/canadianmilitarypattern
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 01-09-04, 22:39
nox83 nox83 is offline
Noel
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 7
Default I am very interested...

by any article which could solve this enigma.
thanks a lot Keith
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 01-09-04, 22:45
nuyt's Avatar
nuyt nuyt is offline
Overvalwagen-o-logist
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: holland
Posts: 586
Default thanks noel

tks Noel for the quick and extensive reply! Sorry if I cross-examined your quizz to much...

Ok, considering the cossacks would not have brought the truck with them to the OZAK region and if we assume this was Yugoslav territory, well, than I admit I am lost ...

The Bedford or whatever vehicle could have been captured in France or Greece or even Yugoslavia itself?

It could also have been a captured partisan vehicle. Icks and Crow describe such vehicles in their encyclopedia of armoured cars.

The hull looks AXIS though, comparable with German halftracks and Italian Spa Dovunque APC prototype.
But, still a 4x2 apc similar in concept to the
Overvalwagens!

Kind regards, Nuyt
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 02-09-04, 00:06
Bill Murray Bill Murray is offline
Dog Robber
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Kennesaw (Atlanta, Ga.), USA
Posts: 1,400
Default Reference:Cossacks

Nox83:

You may be using the same reference I am posting here, but in any case, Editions Heimdal published an excellent history of the Cossacks in 2000, details as follows.

Les Cosaques de Pannwitz 1942-1945
Author: Francois de Lannoy
ISBN 2 84048 131 6

Email: Editions.heimdal@wanadoo.fr

Language is French/English, hundreds of excellent photos and well written text taking the story from the beginning to a very sad end.
While our mystery vehicle is not shown in the book, many, many other very interesting vehicles, tanks, weapons etc. are pictured and the quality is outstanding.

As to the mystery vehicle, I am still searching my photos but cannot come up with anything other than the chassis is certainly British but, what chassis?
Bill
__________________
Dog Robber Sends
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 02-09-04, 00:38
Richard Farrant's Avatar
Richard Farrant Richard Farrant is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Kent, England
Posts: 3,641
Default

Looking at the second picture, the one showing the rear wheel under the horse, I feel certain that it is a Bedford rear axle shaft showing, and not a Morris Commercial.

Richard
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 02-09-04, 20:24
Richard Notton
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Identification Quizz

Quote:
Originally posted by nox83
What's that?
http://www.network54.com/Forum/threa...eid=1093798478
picture come from Panzer units in the operations OZAK 1943-45 by Stefano Di Giusto
I need expert. Thanks in advance
Well. . . . . . .It could be a German conversion to a French Laffly W 15T, they applied armoured bodywork to some of them similar in look to their 3 ton Armourd Personnel Carriers bodies (the Sdkfz 251 3 ton SPW's).

The gun mount is a standard German item seen fitted on many bunkers, rail wagons, vehicles and trailers, its called Zwillingssockel 34, and can either have two MG 34 machine guns (as shown here) or two MG42.

R.
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 16-09-04, 02:10
Richard Notton
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Re: Identification Quizz

Quote:
Originally posted by FV623
Well. . . . . . .It could be a German conversion to a French Laffly W 15T, they applied armoured bodywork to some of them similar in look to their 3 ton Armourd Personnel Carriers bodies (the Sdkfz 251 3 ton SPW's).
Well, further to that look at the body shape and the rectangular shapes, probably chain hooks, in the wheel rims and the wheel hub itself. Of course the nose would give it away as these all had the very characteristic small unditching wheels at the front. These W 15Ts would have likely been captured in quantity of course.

Here's what I've found in Beute-Kraftfahrzeuge und-Panzer der deutschen Wehrmacht by Walter Spielberger.

R
Attached Thumbnails
laffly w15comp.jpg  
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 20-09-04, 12:16
nox83 nox83 is offline
Noel
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 7
Default a new theory

http://www.network54.com/Forum/threa...eid=1095617791
say me that you think about it
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 23-09-04, 11:59
Richard Notton
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: a new theory

Quote:
Originally posted by nox83
http://www.network54.com/Forum/threa...eid=1095617791
say me that you think about it
Interesting stuff, my tame German expert also notes that unit histories often record the one-off modification of all manner of vehicles, especially whilst the Wehrmacht was garrisonned in France with little else to do.

What it definitely is/was may well be a mystery for some time yet.

R.
Reply With Quote
Reply


Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 02:27.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2025, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © Maple Leaf Up, 2003-2016