Windsor Carrier in Canadian service

[Wes Beatty]

Hello All:

Sorry for another newbie question but here goes.

I'm wondering if the Canadian army used the Windsor Carrier, to tow 6 pounders, at Normandy and beyond. In an RT (Vol 25 No. 1) Don Dingwall wrote that, "[e]vidence of Windsors in Canadian service is virtually non-existent". Dingwall also said that the British 7th and 11th Armoured Divisions used the Windsor as a tow vehicle towards the "end of the war".

In Doug Knight's 'The 6-Pounder Anti-Tank Gun in Canadian Service' (page 13) it's indicated that the CMHQ decided to use the Windsor Carrier as the standard 6-pounder towing vehicle in April of 1944.

So my question remains; were Windsors used by the Canadian military at Normandy and beyond? Thanks for any help. Wes

[centurion]

Originally posted by Wes Beatty
So my question remains; were Windsors used by the Canadian military at Normandy and beyond? Thanks for any help. Wes

Chamberlain and Ellis in 'Making tracks - the carrier story' state that due to initial mechanical problems the Windsor only saw active front line sevice in 1945 with the 21st Army Group (which contained the 1st Canadian Army) . Its therefore possible that Canadian units may have used it but not at Normandy

[John McGillivray]

In CMHQ report No. 141 it seems to indicate that the production of the Windsor Carrier was only to start in Sept. 1944. This is after the end of the Normandy Battles.

http://www.forces.gc.ca/dhh/downloads/cmhq/cmhq141.pdf

“83. During the year trials were made with new types of carrier. The Canadian Windsor Carrier was submitted for trial in February (C.M.H.Q. file 1/Carriers/1/2: Notes on Meeting to Discuss Windsor Carrier, 1 Feb 44). This is similar in appearance to the T16 Carrier but is actually a lengthened version of the Canadian Carrier Universal Mk II, and has greater stowage capacity than either the T16 or Universal (C.M.H.Q. file 24/Reports/1/3: D.D.E.M Memorandum, 30 Apr 45). By April it had been decided to adopt it as well as the T16 as a tower for the 6-pr gun, and the British Ministry of Supply had placed an order for 5000 in Canada which would replace the Loyd Carrier in this role; the Windsor would not replace the Universal Carrier. The Canadian Army decided to follow the British in this policy (C.M.H.Q. file 1/Carriers/1/2: D.Q.M.G., C.M.H.Q. to D.C.G.S., C.M.H.Q., 15 Apr 44; Chief of Staff, C.M.H.Q., to Under-Secretary of State, War Office, 28 Apr 44; War Office Letter, 2 Jun 44; D.C.G.S., C.M.H.Q. to D.Q.M.G., C.M.H.Q., 10 Aug 44). Production of Windsor carriers was due to start in September (ibid: Tel G.S.W. 321, DEFENSOR to CANMILITRY, 28 Apr 44). The British intention was eventually to replace all existing types with the C.T.20 which was being developed (ibid: War Office Letter, 2 Jun 44).”

[Neil Ashley]

My group has photographic evidence of 43rd Recce usuing Windsor Carrier's as early as October 1943. Indeed some verterans of the regiment claim to have been using them from the time of their landing in late June 1944.

The British Army for spares and training reasons tried to restrict vehicle types within formations, and this is how presumably the Canadian Army ended up as the largest users of T16's (perhaps the only) in North West Europe. Canadian formations were already totaly committed to the T16 (in certain roles) by the time of Normandy landings. Indeed it would be interesting to know what Canadian production orders were placed for the Windsor Carrier.

There are plenty of late war photographs of Windsor's in use with the British and Polish Armies but few of Canadian use.

Below if it attaches is a picture from a recent regimental news letter.

[centurion]

Originally posted by Neil Ashley
My group has photographic evidence of 43rd Recce usuing Windsor Carrier's as early as October 1943. Indeed some verterans of the regiment claim to have been using them from the time of their landing in late June 1944.

The British Army for spares and training reasons tried to restrict vehicle types within formations, and this is how presumably the Canadian Army ended up as the largest users of T16's (perhaps the only) in North West Europe. Canadian formations were already totaly committed to the T16 (in certain roles) by the time of Normandy landings. Indeed it would be interesting to know what Canadian production orders were placed for the Windsor Carrier.

There are plenty of late war photographs of Windsor's in use with the British and Polish Armies but few of Canadian use.

Below if it attaches is a picture from a recent regimental news letter.

The photo attached is of a late production type Windsor (shape of the gun position is different from the early production) so one has to assume this is not the photographic evidence of October 1943 (which would show an early production Windsor). It would be interesting to see these photos. As production had started in1943 only to be halted because of mechanical problems it is possible that some early Windsors escaped from captivity.

[Neil Ashley]

My mistake.

For 1943 read 1944.

Regarding early and late types, I have always associated these with the shape of the front wings. I have never seen a picture of the late war type with square front wings in service.

I have seen pictures of very early Windsors incorporating some Mk1 Carrier features, but I assumed these to be development models rather than series production.

[centurion]

Originally posted by Neil Ashley
My mistake.

For 1943 read 1944.

Regarding early and late types, I have always associated these with the shape of the front wings. I have never seen a picture of the late war type with square front wings in service.

I have seen pictures of very early Windsors incorporating some Mk1 Carrier features, but I assumed these to be development models rather than series production.

Digging back into my library I find the following illustrations that claim to show early and late production. Looking at them and your photo yours seems to have features from both! Look at the lights and the 'hood' above the gun slot for example. An interim state?

[Neil Ashley]

Perhaps Nigel through research he has done for his book can enlighten us on the definitive early and late war production Windsor Carrier, but I have always assumed the vehicle in the picture I posted to be the early production model, and the square wing model to be late war.

When Windsors were first being developed the Mk1 Universal Carrier was still in production so it is not supprising that early models resembled these vehicles. By the time production proper got underway Mk11 Universal Carriers were the current model and I assumed the design was modified to match the latest design.

Both of us are only surmising on the basis of reference books which as we all know often are not correct.

Hopefully some out there has the definitive answer based on primary information.

[Stewart Loy]

Originally posted by Neil Ashley
Perhaps Nigel through research he has done for his book

Ah-ha!!

Another reference to that book!

I lay awake dreaming of a Carrier book, but none has appeared on the horizon ...

Will it ever come?


Stewart

[centurion]

Originally posted by Stewart Loy
I lay awake dreaming of a Carrier book, but none has appeared on the horizon ...

Chamberlain and Ellis published a history of the development of the Carrier from 1914 to 1972 including the Llyod, the Universal, the Windsor, the T16, the Oxford and the Cambridge, all the various variants (including the various 2 pdr gun versions in Australia, Canada and UK) the Mantis etc etc. Long out of print now but I've found myself having to refer back to it time after time. However there is a limit to how much can be covered in 80 pages and new research often throws up new information - hence this current thread. I've always found it interesting how historians covering, say the Peninsular War, can be so dogmatic about their conclusions when we are still trying to uncover exactly what happened 60 years ago - in living memory.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by Stewart Loy
I lay awake dreaming of a Carrier book, but none has appeared on the horizon ...

Need a new pair of binoculars to scan the horizon?
Otherwise you'd spotted this: book review: Universal Carrier 1936-48 (New Vanguard 110)

H.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Windsor T282290, "VENDES" at Utrecht, The Netherlands, May 1945 with "Dutch Stowage"


Linked from Photo request - Windsor Carrier

[Stewart Loy]

Originally posted by Hanno Spoelstra
Need a new pair of binoculars to scan the horizon?
Otherwise you'd spotted this: book review: Universal Carrier 1936-48 (New Vanguard 110)

Hanno,

After seeing your original post those many moons ago I lunged to grab the phone to call to order a copy of this newest effort.

Although my copy was a bit slow to come - a sentiment shared by our pal Jim DeBock in AB - it was worth the wait. It has many T-16 pix, some excellent stowage shots of lots of Carrier variations, and the ever popular cross section views.

I still eagerly await Nigel's book - but will my friends have to settle for a lump of coal in their stocking at Xmas ( again )??

Ever the optimist, I wait by the phone for another call to action, MasterCard in hand. Dare I hope for a 'signed copy'? I titter like a schoolgurl in anticipation ...



Stewart

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by Stewart Loy
I still eagerly await Nigel's book - but will my friends have to settle for a lump of coal in their stocking at Xmas ( again )??

Stewart, maybe - if Steve Guthrie is fast enough - the following book in preparation will be able to stop your tremor.

Hurry on authors! Stew can't stand it much longer!

H.


Source: http://www.servicepub.com/

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Source: http://www.ullsteinbild.de/
Image number: 00709985
Date: 03.05.1945
2.WK: Briten rücken in Hamburg ein.
Motorisierte Einheiten der britischen Armee rücken in Hamburg ein. Passieren einer Elbbrücke. Rechts zwei deutsche Soldaten. 03.05.1945