Ede, Holland 1945

[Jon McGrath]

The attached photos were taken by my father when he was stationed in Ede, Holland from mid-May 1945. The only notes on the photos are "mine destroying Sherman" and "prewar French tank" (iron cross on turret).

[Hanno Spoelstra]

German Panther tank;
British Sherman V "Crab" mine flail tank;
French Char B1 captured by the Germans in 1940 and re-used (it may have been fitted a flame thrower).

Thanks for sharing!

[Jon McGrath]

Going through some of my late father's photos and came across these three photos apparently taken in Ede shortly after the end of hostilities. In photo 1, there are two men in the current - hard to see in the original small photo and only noticed today in checking the scan. I have no idea who they are but assume them to be members of the Canadian Scottish (don't know which battalion) with whom dad was serving at the time. It's possible that I've posted these photos previously. If so, my apology to the moderator. Jon

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Very interesting pictures Jon, thanks for sharing!

[Alex van de Wetering]

t's possible that I've posted these photos previously. If so, my apology to the moderator. Jon

Jon, I haven't seen these before.....so thanks for sharing!

I wonder if that Char B is one of the German Flammpanzer versions that were active around Arnhem??

Alex

[Jon McGrath]

In the photo of the Panther (?), there appears to be "fencing", on either side, that looks to me like tank tracks. If so, might this have been a hastily placed defensive position?

Alex, I checked my "statistics" and see that I had posted the photos previously. I just re-discovered them this week and unintentionally re-posted.

Jon

[Jakko Westerbeke]

Originally Posted by Jon McGrath

In the photo of the Panther (?), there appears to be "fencing", on either side, that looks to me like tank tracks. If so, might this have been a hastily placed defensive position?

It is a Panther Ausführung G, and the tracks are Panther tracks. Not sure why they would be snaking along there, but I get the impression they have been placed there to form a fence for some reason. In the left foreground (so behind the tank) there is also a drive sprocket ring, probably from this same Panther.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by Jon McGrath

Alex, I checked my "statistics" and see that I had posted the photos previously. I just re-discovered them this week and unintentionally re-posted.

Jon indeed you did, I see I even replied to it. Have now merged the two threads.

It is no problem to bring a topic back to top every now and then because you'll get new readers and responses. It is not unheard of here on MLU that a thread 10+ years old is revived

[David Dunlop]

The turret on that Sherman Flail looks VERY disconnected from the hull and the background building in that photo looks very similar to the one behind the Panther. It might be possible to pinpoint the area in Ede from that building, if it has survived, and learn a bit more about what happened to both vehicles.

David

[David Herbert]

Yes, well spotted David. Also there is a high wire fence between the tanks and the building that looks the same in both photos. The Sherman has certainly been blown up and the turret moved back about a foot.

David

[David Dunlop]

A long shot perhaps, but could those photos have been taken in the area of the Simon Stevinkrausene Barracks complex in Ede?

Another possible search direction might be to determine what unit was using Sherman Flails in Ede and if Regimental Diaries list any fatal casualties, when and where. As for time, I would think 17 - 24 April 1944 would be a likely start point.

David

[Jon McGrath]

Originally Posted by David Dunlop

A long shot perhaps, but could those photos have been taken in the area of the Simon Stevinkrausene Barracks complex in Ede?

Another possible search direction might be to determine what unit was using Sherman Flails in Ede and if Regimental Diaries list any fatal casualties, when and where. As for time, I would think 17 - 24 April 1944 would be a likely start point.

I've re-read some of my dad's notes. He was in the 1st Bn, Canadian Scottish (I didn't recall, when I posted the photos). He arrived in Arnhem on May 9 or 10, 1945, spent some time there before being assigned to the 1st Bn. There is no mention of the barracks, only that he was in a camp in Ede, until he returned to Canada in October 1945 and to the artillery, from which he retired in 1964.

It would be interesting to see a more recent photo of the area.

Thanks for your interest.

Jon

[Hanno Spoelstra]

I did a bit of research and Ronald van Riet of the Platform Military History Ede told me these photos were taken at hotel-restaurant De Langenberg. A quick search in the internet yielded some more info.

Shortly after the war ended, around the time Jon's father was there, a small military museum was established. The association "Oorlogsherinnering - Museum Ede" (War remembrance - Museum Ede) was selling ashtrays made from the tins in which food was distributed in April-May 1945 (see Operation Faust). By selling 40,000 ashtrays they hoped to make a profit of 20,000 Guilders to buy De Langenberg and the terrain next to it. Before the war, the owner had built some barracks to house groups for school holidays. A Scouting group also was housed there, but they could not return after the war because of the plans for the museum. During the war, these barracks were used to house NSB (Dutch national-socialist party) youth, horses, and then the roofing material was used for defense trenches. The remains were sold off and Canadian Army had levelled the terrain with bulldozers. Note: in Jon's first and second photo the buildings in the background seem to be in a reasonable condition. So these are other buildings than the barracks next to De Langenberg? I think De Langenberg itself can be seen in the background of the third picture.

Somehow the museum association managed to collect the Panther, Sherman Crab and Char B1 they even managed to source a small submarine. No doubt the transportation was done by a Canadian Army unit, probably the same one which did the levelling of the terrain. Reportedly, the Panther's gun was still live - and loaded - and kids often played in it. (I doubt the gun was really still loaded as no doubt the playing kids would have found a way to fire it.)

In September 1946 the Association decided not to proceed with their plans for the museum, as the local government wanted only one war museum in the region and Arnhem (approx. 20 kms. away) was deemed a more appropriate location. The intention of the Association was to support the formation of the regional museum by donating all the artefacts they had collected, but it is unknown where the artefacts ended up. None of the tanks nor the submarine went to what would become the Airborne Museum at Oosterbeek, though possibly smaller artefacts went there. Ronald van Riet assumes they went to the Overloon War Museum. I am not sure about the Panther, but the Sherman Crab is not the one in the Overloon museum and the Overloon museum has never had a Char B1. I reckon they were scrapped as there was an enormous need for scrap metal in the early postwar years.

De Langenberg is still a restaurant today. In 1990, a Sherman M4(105) was placed on the other side of the road as a memorial for the Canadian liberators - see Google streetview for a current view of the location.


References (accessed on 17 December 2020):

1. Hotel-restaurant De Langenberg: https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_Langenberg
2. Langenberg Scouting group: https://www.langenberggroep.nl/about...ggroep-deel-2/
3. Ashtray made from food tins (photo attached): https://www.goedgevonden.info/verzam...logsmuseum-ede
4. Google streetview: https://goo.gl/maps/Yv5sh79oTC4vVAyL7
5. Pre-war photo of De Langenberg (attached) in Gemeentearchief Ede: https://www.archieval.nl/detail.php?...394&id=1370031
6. Edese Courant newspaper (attached), 13 November 1946: https://www.archieval.nl/detail.php?...5&id=244005339

[Alex van de Wetering]

Originally Posted by Jon McGrath

Alex, I checked my "statistics" and see that I had posted the photos previously. I just re-discovered them this week and unintentionally re-posted.
Jon

Better safe than sorry, Jon.....as the pictures are very interesting.

but I get the impression they have been placed there to form a fence for some reason.

My thought exactly. Heavy duty tracks as a replacement for a damaged fence?
In that case I think it's more likely a house or school in the background, rather than one of the army barracks.
Ede at one point had 5 or more Army bases! I visited the sites a few months ago. The whole area is turned into a residential area; some buildings were taken down, while others were redeveloped into houses.

Alex

[Alex van de Wetering]

Nice piece of research Hanno!

Originally Posted by Hanno Spoelstra

It is unknown where the artefacts went to. One assumption is they went to the Overloon War Museum. I am not sure about the Panther, but the Sherman Crab is not the one in the Overloon museum and the Overloon museum has never had a Char B1. I reckon they were scrapped as there was an enormous need for scrap metal in the early postwar years.

I agree; most likely ended up as scrap. I think the history of the Overloon Panther is well documented and I don't think it came from Ede, even though it's also a Panther Ausf. G.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by Alex van de Wetering

I agree; most likely ended up as scrap. I think the history of the Overloon Panther is well documented and I don't think it came from Ede, even though it's also a Panther Ausf. G.

I've amended the text after finding a newspaper article. A more likely destination is what what later became the Airborne museum, though I am sure the large artefacts did not end up there. The cost to transport them there was probably prohibitive and I reckon they were cut up for scrap in-situ.

[David Herbert]

Nice piece of research Hanno !

David

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by David Herbert

Nice piece of research Hanno !

Thanks David and Alex. Thanks to Ronald van Riet's heads-up the pieces quickly fell into place.

[Alex van de Wetering]

Originally Posted by Hanno Spoelstra

I've amended the text after finding a newspaper article. A more likely destination is what what later became the Airborne museum, though I am sure the large artefacts did not end up there. The cost to transport them there was probably prohibitive and I reckon they were cut up for scrap in-situ.

or used for the filming of "Theirs is the Glory" ???

Edit: the 2 Panthers in "Theirs is the Glory" are Ausf. D's......so not the one in Jon's picture.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Now, where did the tanks come from?

The German Army used the French Char B1 in flame-thrower guise. At least four of them were used during the battle for Arnhem. See one below which was put out of action by the British Airborne troops at the Van Borsseleweg in Oosterbeek. Oosterbeek is approx. 17 kms. away from Ede.




Personally, I am more interested in finding out where the Sherman Crab came from. Jon, is it possible to make a better scan so we can read the census number? We may be able to find it back in Kevin's WW2 database of tank, carrier and vehicle names.

Originally Posted by David Dunlop

Another possible search direction might be to determine what unit was using Sherman Flails in Ede and if Regimental Diaries list any fatal casualties, when and where. As for time, I would think 17 - 24 April 1944 would be a likely start point.

I have found a reference to a possible identity. One Sherman Crab was put out of action by mines at Doorwerth on 16 April. Doorwerth is approx. 15 kms. from Ede. I have to check which of the three regiments of the 30th Armoured Brigade operating Sherman Crabs were involved in this operation: 22nd Dragoons, 2nd County of London Yeomanry (Westminster Dragoons) or 1st Lothians and Border Horse.

ref. https://www.edestad.nl/lokaal/histor...bevrijd-698466

"On April 16, the Essex Battalion left Velp to relieve the Leicester Battalion of the 147th Brigade in the front line on the western edge of Arnhem. The next day, the two other battalions of the 56th Brigade first left for Wageningen. The Gloucestershire Battalion advanced with four mine-sweeping "Crab" Sherman tanks and eight Churchill "crocodile" tanks (flamethrower) via Utrechtseweg (N225) through Oosterbeek to Doorwerth.

The South Wales Borderer Battalion with four "Crab" flail tanks and three flamethrower Churchill tanks (tanks of the 79th British Tank Division) drove to Doorwerth via Benedendorpseweg and Heveadorp. On the way, both battalions were busy clearing mines and blockades, where a tank was damaged. From Doorwerth, the South Wales Borderers Battalion ran via Heelsum to Bennekom to occupy a front line on the west side of the village. These British soldiers stayed there for weeks." [Google translate]

[Jon McGrath]

Hanno, thank you so much for your research. I find it quite amazing and fascinating what the MLU members can determine from such old photos.

Yes, I will try to get a better scan that shows census numbers, but it might not be for a few days. The original photos are in 3"x5" format and have become quite faded.

You mention a small submarine. I am quite certain that I have a picture of a picture of a small submarine. As I recall it is placed on two supports, one fore and one aft. I will try to find that photo, as well. However, I think I am in the photo and that it was taken sometime between late 1960 and early 1964, when my family was stationed with the Canadian army in the Ruhr (Hemer specifically) and during which time we made several trips to the Netherlands. I will see what more photos I can find, but it will take a few days.

Cheers
Jon

[Wout Jansen]

When I edit the photo with Lightroom, I come across the following number: T148187. Hopefully this can solve the question.

Wout Jansen (Veenendaal 12 km from Ede).

[Jon McGrath]

Wout beat me to identifying the census number. Here's an enhanced scan f the Sherman Crab. Unfortunately, I've not been able to find the phot of the min-submarine. Will keep looking and post it if I find it, even though this is an armour tread. Jon

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by Wout Jansen

When I edit the photo with Lightroom, I come across the following number: T148187. Hopefully this can solve the question.

Thanks for clearing that up, Wout. Kevin's records (see link above) do not list this number.

A number which is close, T 148141, was assigned to a Sherman V Crab of the 22nd Dragoons, C Sqn, and was named BLENHEIM.

@Jon, please post any pictures you may find - always interesting to see and if needed I can move to an appropriate thread

[Wout Jansen]

After editing the photo, it produces this result. To the right of the hull is a W?

[Alex van de Wetering]

After editing the photo, it produces this result. To the right of the hull is a W?

Wout, I only see the census number, a spare track link rack and a very faint star. Do you seen the "W" more towards the rear of the hull.....possibly part of the tanks nickname???

Personally, I am more interested in finding out where the Sherman Crab came from.

Hanno, I only have a copy of the 1944 War diary of the Westminster Dragoons, so I am not sure if they were in the vicinity at the time (1945)...However, I am leaning towards the Crab being 1st Lothians, as there is a series of pictures showing crabs of this unit in Velp in the local archive, and because known 1st Lothians Crabs show the same storage rack for track links on the left hand side of the hull.....a detail you don't see on Westminster Dragoons Crabs.

The Crab also has a somewhat different attachment of the left side cilinder to the tank....the rearmost stiffening rib securing the bracket and cilinder to the left side of the hull is different from others I have seen.

[Alex van de Wetering]

Attached is a picture of a 1st Lothians Crab with the same spare track link rack during a display in Amsterdam 1945.
source: https://beeldbankwo2.nl/nl/beelden/d...&rows=1&page=6




Also attached are two pictures of 1st Lothians crabs in Velp 1945, april 16th, 1945. See AoS "52". (note that the Crab on left in the first picture is actually a Mk2 crab)
source: https://www.geldersarchief.nl/bronne...ding&mif2=Velp

[Alex van de Wetering]

Attached is a picture from WW2talk, courtesy of James Nightingale jnr.

"Bill Wyatts tank brewing up at Arnhem"

source: http://ww2talk.com/index.php?threads...y.13221/page-2

Judging from the bracket on the turret side this looks a lot like the same Crab as in Jon's picture. It's 1st Lothian and Border Yeomanry.

[Jakko Westerbeke]

I would say it’s probably the same Crab. It not only has the same type of bracket on the turret, but the chain stowage rack on the side is of similar construction (T-angle iron) and there is a long, narrow box on the rear of the engine deck of both tanks.

[Wout Jansen]

If you put my edited photo on the hard drive, and you enlarge the image on your screen, I think you can clearly see a "W" on the hull. The number is also easier to read.