Mystery Armoured Car

[MarkV]

Hello,

Photos of this interesting armoured car showed up on a website from Israel some time ago and I have wondered ever since what it might be.

http://www.israelalbum.org.il/%D7%99.../P6785?sr=true








The captions for the photos showing the aircraft translate to "A light plane with wings dismantled by an armoured vehicle, the Dead Sea area" and "Date: 1938 - 1941". The captions for the other photos reads "A British soldier beside an armoured vehicle, in the area of the potash factory in Sodom" with the same date range."

Much of the armour appears to have originated with a Rolls-Royce Armoured Car, but the chassis is clearly not Rolls-Royce. A number of Rolls-Royce Armoured Car bodies were moved to 1.5 ton Ford/Fordson truck chassis during this time period, but this is clearly not a 1940-41 Ford/Fordson truck chassis. The wheels and tyres are much larger than anything ever seen on a Rolls-Royce Armoured Car. The airplane seems to be one operated by a Zionist group but I haven't been able to identify what vehicle donated the chassis to this armoured car, who operated it, or what became of it.

I am guessing the wheels and tyres are from a CMP, but I am not sure. The steering wheel appears to be on the left. The gent in the first photo is wearing a uniform, if someone is skilled in identifying such things.

Any clues as to what it might be or where the various bits may have originated would be appreciated!

Thank you,

Mark

[Jakko Westerbeke]

I don’t think they are CMP wheels. I’m far from an expert on the CMP, but all photos I found of them with a short search show wheels without those eight holes in them, the tyres look too wide and fat to me and the pattern is clearly not an all-terrain type like you usually see on CMP trucks.

This vehicle also seems to be very short-nosed for a simple body transplant from a Rolls-Royce armoured car. I get the impression the nose was cut off just in front of the forward engine cover catch and the front plate then re-fitted to the armour. Though having said that, I find photos showing different locations for those catches:



… so maybe the nose wasn’t shortened after all? Though it still looks shorter than on the two above.

[Jack Geratic]

There was the Fordson version where the bodies were placed on a longer Ford chasis. Comparing details at the front, it has a different style suspension with the leaf spring on top, and the front door cover shorter to accommodate this, so not quite either. The tires are also very much oversized, and that may be contributing to the stubby look of the vehicle.

https://www.keymilitary.com/article/fighting-fordsons

https://warwheels.net/FordsonACindex.html


regards,
Jack

[Jakko Westerbeke]

My first thought was also it might be a Fordson, but a lot of details are wrong, I think, even ignoring the wheels. But to get to the bottom of this probably needs someone who knows more about these armoured cars than I do

[Richard Coutts-Smith]

No expert in this field, so I checked out my copy of British Armoured Cars 1914 to 1945 by BT White which showed that the Turret is an "Admiralty Pattern", possibly fitted to a Rolls Royce 1920 Pattern Armoured car. I note the lack of a side door as on the 1924 model
An internet search came up with this one which appears to be the same, with smaller wheel/tyre combo. (pic from the Shutterstock site). Only info was it's listing as Israel British Troops.
HMAC Capetown on the bonnet
The left hand drive shown in the original post threw me, but I believe the image maybe reversed due to the pioneer tool layout being opposite to this one.
I think the huge tyres and wheel arches are hiding the true length of the vehicle?
Rich.

[MarkV]

Thanks for the photo Rich, but these are Rolls Royce Armoured Cars equipped with the later War Department wheels. The car in my first posting is on a different chassis and has a modified body.

I noticed that the turret on the mystery car seems to have come from a Rolls Royce Armoured Car Mk 1A. These had a ball mount for the mg. The mystery car has the opening shaped to take a ball mount, but the ball is missing. Makes me think this is assembled unofficially from salvaged bits..

MarkV

Originally Posted by Richard Coutts-Smith

No expert in this field, so I checked out my copy of British Armoured Cars 1914 to 1945 by BT White which showed that the Turret is an "Admiralty Pattern", possibly fitted to a Rolls Royce 1920 Pattern Armoured car. I note the lack of a side door as on the 1924 model
An internet search came up with this one which appears to be the same, with smaller wheel/tyre combo. (pic from the Shutterstock site). Only info was it's listing as Israel British Troops.
HMAC Capetown on the bonnet
The left hand drive shown in the original post threw me, but I believe the image maybe reversed due to the pioneer tool layout being opposite to this one.
I think the huge tyres and wheel arches are hiding the true length of the vehicle?
Rich.

[Lynn Eades]

Would the possibly be aircraft tyres?

[Paul Singleton]

I am curious as to how the front wheels are mounted. I see empty wheel stud holes in the front wheels, whereas the rear wheel nuts are clearly visible.

[MarkV]

I've seen a similar tread pattern on a truck, so I suspect it is a truck wheel. Would an aircraft tire have tread like this?

That's a very good question about the attachment of the front wheels! As the back ones fit the lug pattern but the front do not, this seems to support the idea that this car was constructed from bits of other vehicles.

MarkV

[Lynn Eades]

I found this image googling aircraft tyres. The guys were working on a plane. Maybe they had access to a stock of tyres. Yes they are a sand tread. Maybe these were used on something like a C47 doing desert work? No knowledge.

[Niels V]

Potentially the tires could be 14.00x20 I had similar pattern thread on the front of my Thornycroft Amazon, and they are about 1.25m high