Alligator front drive problems

Bryan · #1 05-06-05, 19:31

Hi all,

After uncovering my alligator from winter storage it appears that the damp has taken hold and all the hard work done so far has suffered. so i have decided that it is going to be completely striped back to a hull and started again.

I am in the process of removing the front axle/stearing/brake assembly from the alligator.in doing so I have discovered that one of the half shafts has taken a bit of a pounding and the spline has been twisted. (see picture) One more job to try and sort out. Has anyone else come accross this in there carrier?

Can anyone suggest an oil to go back in the front drive system in my carrier. The stearing is done by means of brake bands which are inclosed in the the front axle assembly. I am not sure if the bren gun carrier's are steered in the same way. but it does mean the bands are submerged in oil.

Any help greatfully recieved.

Thanks

Bryan

Hanno Spoelstra · #2 05-06-05, 21:43

Quote:

Originally posted by Bryan
Can anyone suggest an oil to go back in the front drive system in my carrier. The stearing is done by means of brake bands which are inclosed in the the front axle assembly. I am not sure if the bren gun carrier's are steered in the same way. but it does mean the bands are submerged in oil.

Hmm, looks like it has controlled differential steering like on the US-built T16 Universal Carrier (not the British/Canadian Universal Carrier). Possibly they even used a T16 axle? For oil type and grade, check with someone who has a T16 maintenance manual.

Hanno

Stewart Loy · #3 05-06-05, 22:55

It just so happens that I have found a company in Cartersville, Georgia that still uses the T-16 controlled differential in the off road machines that they make. Soft Trac Supply Inc.

I have asked them for the most current lubrication recommendations to make these units work as well as they can.

TM 9-746 War Department Technical manual for the Universal Carrier T16 ( 11Aug43 ) recommends 9 quarts ( with cooler ) of SAE 90 above +32 degrees F., and SAE 80 from 0 to 32, below that it recommends OFSB 6-11 ( that I do not have ).

I will let you know when I hear back from the folks down South.

Stewart

Hanno Spoelstra · #4 05-06-05, 23:27

Quote:

Originally posted by Stewart Loy
It just so happens that I have found a company in Cartersville, Georgia that still uses the T-16 controlled differential in the off road machines that they make. Soft Trac Supply Inc.

http://www.softtracksupply.com/

Richard Farrant · #5 06-06-05, 00:17

Quote:

Originally posted by Stewart Loy
TM 9-746 War Department Technical manual for the Universal Carrier T16 ( 11Aug43 ) recommends 9 quarts ( with cooler ) of SAE 90 above +32 degrees F., and SAE 80 from 0 to 32, below that it recommends OFSB 6-11 ( that I do not have ).

If as Bryan says, the brake bands are immersed in oil, then make sure the gear oil used is a straight SAE 80 or 90 and not a hypoid/EP type. The extreme pressure additives in EP gear oil, do not allow the brake bands to grip properly. Have come across this problem in other applications.

Richard

Tony Smith · #6 06-06-05, 00:18

The Alligator is much larger than a carrier, I doubt a T16 axle would live up to the Job. As we discussed in another thread, the Alligator was one of the first vehicles that FMC was involved with, later going on to the M59 and M113 family. Perhaps there is a common link here? The M113 uses an Allison transmission and controlled differential - what oil does it use in the final drive? Surely someone here knows someone with M113 mechanical experience? (Not me, I only slept in the back of them

)

Richard Farrant · #7 06-06-05, 00:27

Quote:

Originally posted by Tony Smith
The Alligator is much larger than a carrier, I doubt a T16 axle would live up to the Job. As we discussed in another thread, the Alligator was one of the first vehicles that FMC was involved with,

Tony,

Wrong Alligator, the one in question was made by Atkinson in UK.

Richard

Stewart Loy · #8 06-06-05, 00:42

Quote:

Originally posted by Tony Smith
The Alligator is much larger than a carrier, I doubt a T16 axle would live up to the Job.

A little bird once told me that the T-16 diff is also employed in the Stuart tank, but I dont know anybody with such a vehicle.

Perhaps Alex Blair has a manual that has a picture of the beast.

Incidentially, there is a place in Europe that still has this gearbox and track for the 'more advanced Carrier'. Goenwood (? ).

Richard, I appreciate the tip on not using lube with high pressure additives - it goes against what some may see as progress - to use the old lubes. The extreme pressure additives would resist the brakes efforts to grab, which might limit the steering.

Stewart

Alex Blair (RIP) · #9 06-06-05, 02:33

Quote:

Originally posted by Stewart Loy
A little bird once told me that the T-16 diff is also employed in the Stuart tank, but I dont know anybody with such a vehicle.

Hi Stew..
This is out of the M5 series tank and dosen't look like the carriers final drive..

Alex Blair (RIP) · #10 06-06-05, 02:45

Quote:

Originally posted by Stewart Loy
A little bird once told me that the T-16 diff is also employed in the Stuart tank, but I dont know anybody with such a vehicle.

Hi Stew..
This is out of the M5 series tank and dosen't look like the carriers final drive..another shot...

Stewart Loy · #11 06-06-05, 13:21

Alex,

Thanks for the scans.

Come to think of it the info came from Big Bird, and he has led me astray previously. I better talk to Kermit.

We can speak further to this, and many other issues, as well as have you on for a T-16 ride, when I see you in Chatsworth.

Stewart

Alex Blair (RIP) · #12 06-06-05, 13:55

Quote:

Originally posted by Stewart Loy
Thanks for the scans.

Hi Stew..
Yeh..that damned Big Bird...lies like a bad rug...
You'll get the straight gin from Kermit for sure,but if you need me to bring anything to Chatsworth give me a heads up ..I get my info straight from Miss Piggy..
As a matter of fact we went for a ride last night....

http://www.funnyclicks.com/pictures0...litiemotor.jpg

Hanno Spoelstra · #13 06-06-05, 14:14

Quote:

Originally posted by Richard Farrant
Wrong Alligator, the one in question was made by Atkinson in UK.

Correct, see Bryan's alligator here.

Stew, tell Big Bird to go take a hike. Talk to Kermit next time, better yet, the Cookie Monster?!?

H.

Stewart Loy · #14 07-06-05, 02:11

Quote:

Originally posted by Stewart Loy
It just so happens that I have found a company in Cartersville, Georgia that still uses the T-16 controlled differential in the off road machines that they make. Soft Trac Supply Inc.

I have asked them for the most current lubrication recommendations to make these units work as well as they can.

I will let you know when I hear back from the folks down South.

Stewart

Gents,

The folks from Soft Trac have sent a reply that indicates that they recommend regular automatic transmission fluid.

I am not a tribologist, but I have my doubts - so I will send them pictures of my differential unit just to make sure that we are speaking of the same thing.

Has anyone else ever switched from SAE 90 to ATF in a similar application? Something just seems a bit off, but it could be me!

Stewart

Stewart Loy · #15 07-06-05, 15:20

Quote:

Originally posted by Bryan

Can anyone suggest an oil to go back in the front drive system in my carrier. The stearing is done by means of brake bands which are inclosed in the the front axle assembly. I am not sure if the bren gun carrier's are steered in the same way. but it does mean the bands are submerged in oil.

Any help greatfully recieved.

Thanks

Bryan

Bryan,

This morning I recieved a very pleasant call from a fellow near Toronto, Ontario, Canada who works at Techmotive. He tells me that they supply parts for controlled differential units and he has stock for T-16, M-24 and bigger units. He mentioned housings, gear and brake bands, but did not say much about shafts.

He recommends that these units be filled with automatic transmission fluid DEXRON3 or Type F.

Now we know.

The helpful fellow is Tony, at Tecmotive in Concord, Ontario. His contact information is (905) 669-5911 extension 233.

I hope this helps you, I know it has helped me. When I install my repaired oil cooler for the system I shall flush and fill the system with ATF.

If this and a good track tightening does not fix me up, perhaps I shall treat myself to a near set of brake pads ( that Tony has in stock ).

Stewart

Bryan · #16 07-06-05, 23:40

Chaps,

Thanks to everyone how has helped regarding transmission oils for my front drive assembley. I had a sneaky suspicien it may have been normal ATF as the 30 litres of oil I dropped out the front drive was very thin almost like water.

I have attached a photo of my front drive assembley for all those interested. Once I get it out and start to strip it I will have a greater understanding of how it works. I will post some photos of the rebuild once underway.

it is at times like these when a exploded parts drawing would come in very handy but the chances of that are very slim.

Thanks again

Bryan