starter Motor Problems

[Bryan]

Hi all,

I have just started to get a problem with the starter motor on the flatty. Basicly if I do the starter motor up tight on the two bolts when I try and turn the engine over nothing happens.

But if I leave it loose on the two mounting bolts it works fine.

All I can think is happening is the starter motor is jaming on the ring gear.

Has anyone had this problem before?

Any help greatfully recieved.

Thanks

Bryan

[horsa]

The end of the starter shaft stabs into a housing when you are installing it into the vehicle. The housing should have a bushing, probably brass, that should be an exact fit to the starter shaft. If it is wallowed out or missing, you might have some play going on and the thing is torquing over a bit and locking.

It's worth checking and while doing so, put a dab of grease into it if it seems OK.

[Tony Smith]

There is no bush on the ring gear end of the starter shaft, or in the bellhousing itself. The shaft is only supported by the two bearings in the body of the starter.

Bryan, try firing up the starter on a bench, with nuts on the ends of the long bolts to hold it all together. If it works, you know you have a problem elsewhere. If it won't work on the bench when tightened up, I'd suggest looking for the thrust washer which might be missing and allowing the Armature to move and short out on the body or field coils.

Is the starter the original one? English post war V8s (Thames Trader, Pilot, etc) had different length starter mount plates and the overall length of the Bendix gear was longer, but with a narrower gear. I haven't swapped any over, but there might be fouling issues with different starter/flywheel combinations. The pic below shows a Ford Pilot starter on the left, and a Canadian style starter on the right.

[chris vickery]

On Canadian flattys, there is also a small bracket that bolts one of the front starter bolts to the oil pan. It is required to keep the starter aligned as they have a tendency to torque off square as they turn over. Check to see if you have this. I also agree with bench testing yours both with the bolts tightened (using two nuts) and loose as well.

[Bryan]

Thanks for the info.

I have treid the starter motor on the bench and it works fine. When I have placed it back on the engine it works fine if the two bolts are left a bit loose. In doing this it runs and terns the engine over without any problems.

It is only when I tighten the mounting bolts up that when I try and ingage the starter motor it does not turn.

Should there be a spacer ring or shim between the face of the starter motor and the mounting plate on the sump.

Bryan

[Tony Smith]

Which engine do you have and what starter are you using? I suspect your engine in the Alligator should be a post-war British engine, such as a Ford Pilot or Thames Trader has. These engines have a 144 tooth ring gear on the flywheel and use the smaller drive gear on the starter. A CMP or Carrier engine will have a 112 tooth ring gear. If somewhere in the mists of time any of these components have been changed, then you could anticipate things locking up when bolting them up tight, or cranking over the engine.
Do you have an inspection cover on the bellhousing that you could shine a torch into to see what's happening when you engage the starter?
Is the engine free to turn over? Can you rotate the crankshaft freely from the front pulley end?
Some pics would help ID things.

[Bryan]

Tony,

I have counted the teeth on the ring gear and it has a 144. If I leave the starter motor loose and crack the engine over it all moves freeley and the engine fires into life.

The engine is a british 21 stud V8 and has a ford pilot starter motor as shown in your photos. But the main body on my starter motor is different but I shouldent think this makes much diffrent.

Should there be a spacer between the sump and the starter motor?

Thanks again

Bryan

[Bryan]

Heres a photo of the starter motor unit

[Alex Blair (RIP)]

Originally posted by Bryan
Heres a photo of the starter motor unit

BRYAN

Unit looks good but if the bushings in the end bells have the least wear ,as the starter engages and the bolts are tight the armature will move sideways and ground out on the stator as it engages..jamming it..It may not seem like much play but ANY play in these starters will ground them out and refuse to turn over..That is what it sounds like to me..if the end play is correct ,I would put a new pair of oillite bronze bushings in and make sure the shaft is clean and not worn.

[Tony Smith]

I think Alex is right, there is movement inside the starter and something's shorting out. You seem to have the complete set of compatible bits, the starter should just mount up to the bellhousing neat, no spacer.
With the long bolts tightened up with nut, is there any radial or thrust play on the shaft? Besides the bearings in each end of the starter, the Canadian starters also have a thrust washer to take up any play. I'm not intimately familiar with the internals of a Lucas starter, but perhaps this ought be looked at and/or replaced when doing the bearings.

[Bryan]

All,

I have striped my starter motor today to try and get to the bottom of this problem.

It would appear there is some play in the bushes but how much can you get away with or does there need to be no movment at all?

I have attached some pics of the the end plates.

I have noticed that there is a lot of scoring on the end plate with the brushes. it looks like the armeture has been rubbing.

Looking at the starter motor parts diagram in my CMP manual it shows a thrust washer part number. 11036 I know my starter is a diffrent typ but should this washer be fitted?

Bryan

[Bryan]

Heres the other end

[Richard Farrant]

Bryan,

I have been following your thread and realised I have an army parts list for Lucas starters. There is one here, in this 1950's book, for a Ford 5 ton commercial lorry, 6 volt, Lucas part no. 26059A. This number may be stamped on the outside of yours. Anyway it lists two thrust washers, separate numbers, Lucas pt.no's 291037 and 291038. Sorry no pictures though.

Richard

[Alex Blair (RIP)]

Originally posted by Bryan
All,

I have striped my starter motor today to try and get to the bottom of this problem.

It would appear there is some play in the bushes but how much can you get away with or does there need to be no movment at all?

I have attached some pics of the the end plates.

I have noticed that there is a lot of scoring on the end plate with the brushes. it looks like the armeture has been rubbing.

Looking at the starter motor parts diagram in my CMP manual it shows a thrust washer part number. 11036 I know my starter is a diffrent typ but should this washer be fitted?

Bryan

Hi Bryan
There should be NO play in those bushings..and the thrust washer should be in the brush end,sometimes both ends..
When the starter engages,it trys to push the armature sidways and backwards ,toward the brush end.
The clearance between the stator and armature is CRITICAL....
Even rust on either will ground it out...and the starter will not turn...Put in some new bushings,clean the stator and armature with some fine sand cloth, and if you have a lathe,do "Dressing cut" on the segmentated part of the armature on which the brushes ride...install new brushes..ensure that you undercut,or clean well between the segmants (Thoses are insulators between the segmants)so that no metal filings are shorting out the segmants...
Reassemble...When you are cleaning up the starter,make sure that you don't wash the new Bushings with degreaser or solvent...Those bushings are oil impregnated bronze..wash them and you'll wash the lubricant out of the bushings,and you'll be doing it all over again...
Check rotation and end play on the bench...Reinstall...Reach for key and it will start when your hand is within 6" of the key..It will be that fixed....!!!

[Bryan]

Alex, Thanks for the vote of confadence. If I cant get oil light bushes of the shelf I will turn some up out of a Nickal ali bronze or phospher bronze. I will spin the armeture up on the lathe and do all the dressing as recomended.

Richard, if you could send me a scanned copy of the illistrated parts list for the starter motor that would be a great help as the closest I have is what is shown in the CMP manual. and our slightly diffrent.

Thanks all for you help!!!

I will let you know how I get on.

Bryan

[Alex Blair (RIP)]

Originally posted by Bryan
Alex, Thanks for the vote of confadence. If I cant get oil light bushes of the shelf I will turn some up out of a Nickal ali bronze or phospher bronze. I will spin the armeture up on the lathe and do all the dressing as recomended.

Richard, if you could send me a scanned copy of the illistrated parts list for the starter motor that would be a great help as the closest I have is what is shown in the CMP manual. and our slightly diffrent.

Thanks all for you help!!!

I will let you know how I get on.

Bryan

Hi Bryan..
Stick to the OILITE Bushings..
Here is a blurp on them explaining how they work..They are a trade name bushing so ask by name..Someof the dealer will have them..

I'd like to go help you with that but I have to be back by dinner tonigfht...

dying to hear the results...
THis is a good reminder to all of us who only sometimes get into this as a hobby ..

Getting Lubrication to an Oilite Bushing

The best bushings to use are oilite, not brass nor bronze, but an oilite impregnated powder metal bushing. Why oilite? 15% of the weight of the bushing is the oil that has been impregnated by using hot oil and a vacuum system under pressure. The air is sucked out of the powder metal bushing pores creating a void that is then filled with oil. The best lubricant is oil, not grease. Grease will not penetrate. It is just a surface coating and will not last as long as good oil soaking.

Over time oil leaves the bushing. The best way to get oil back into the bushing is to remove the sprocket from the drum (if the sprocket is permanently attached to the drum, then press out the bushing). Clean off the sprocket and bushing with a rag and an air hose and wipe them CLEAN. Never use gas or brake cleaner to clean the sprocket and bushing.

Oil comes out by centrifugal force, heat and leaching out if you improperly store the sprocket. Put the drum and sprocket in a plastic bag to store. Never store them in a cardboard box because the cardboard will act like a sponge sucking out the oil.

Get a small size (1 lb.) coffee can and put in all your sprockets with bushings and roller bearings. Pour in enough oil to completely cover the sprockets. Now what oil should you use?? Contrary to what you would believe the cheaper the oil, the better. Use straight 30 weight petroleum based oil with no additives. You don’t want a synthetic anti-friction oil because for a clutch to work you need friction. You don’t want to get anything on the disk or drum that will prevent friction to occur. Cheap oil when it makes contact to the drum or disk will burn off at 460 degrees and when a clutch is slipping it gets mighty hot. Next put the plastic lid back on the coffee can. Using an old crock pot, place an inch of water in the bottom, turn it up to high and place the coffee can with the parts into the crock pot. Ideally the oil should be at 180 degrees to 200 degrees. You don’t want to boil the oil, you just want it hot enough to melt one cube of paraffin wax (3” x 2” x ½” thick). The water will come to a boil and heat up the oil real nice. When the wax melts, stir it around in the coffee can with a stick so it mixes very nicely with the oil. Leave the bushings in there for 45 minutes. As the oil gets hot the air will come out of the oilite bushings and the void will be replaced with oil. You are going to save this solution and store it so be sure to keep it covered when done to keep any contaminates out of the oil.

After you take the coffee can out of the crock pot, shake the sprockets a little to get the excess solution off them, then hang the sprockets over the can and let them drip back into the solution. After they have cooled down place them in a plastic bag and you are ready to mount them back in the clutch drum when needed. The wax is an excellent lubrication for the sprockets.

You can do the same thing to prep your chain but don’t clean the chain with anything but air and a rag. Gas and brake cleaner will just dry the chain out too much and get into places the lube cannot. Wax is a very good lubricant for chain as well as the bushing.

[Richard Farrant]

Originally posted by Bryan
Richard, if you could send me a scanned copy of the illistrated parts list for the starter motor that would be a great help as the closest I have is what is shown in the CMP manual. and our slightly diffrent.

Bryan,

There were no pictures for that particular starter. To be sure that yours is the same as this one, do you have the Lucas number stamped on the outside? I do have another book that might help but need to positively identify the unit. I am aware it is a post war British V8 from your earlier postings. Also looked up in a British carrier manual and no thrust washer either mentioned in the overhaul procedure nor shown.

Richard

[Bryan]

Richard,

The number cheaks out and is the same unit you mentioned in your last posting.

From what richard suggested I am going to try and get hold of some oilite bushes to replace mine and go from there. But if the unit should have shims fitted I need to get hold of some even though none came out.

Thanks for all your help

Bryan

[Bryan]

All,

I have just ordered my oilite bushes to replace the warn ones in the starter motor.

I have chosen to go for some which were under size on the bore so that I can machine them out to get a greater amount of fit on the armeture shaft, Just incase its warn.

I will be reasembling this over the newxt few days.

I have looked at a parts diagram for the lucas starter motor and it has not got any thrust shims which confusies me a but from talking to you chaps.

Once I have assembled the unit with its new bushes I will see how much end movment there is. If there is a lot then I will grind up a shim to remove this.

Thanks for all your help

Bryan

[Richard Farrant]

Originally posted by Bryan
I have looked at a parts diagram for the lucas starter motor and it has not got any thrust shims which confusies me a but from talking to you chaps.

Bryan,

The starter you have, according to part number, definitely has two thrust washers. Do not be taken in by looking at others types, because when I went through the army list of starters, some types had no washers and others had one. It may be something to do with the construction of the Ford ones where they are secured by the through bolts. If you would like me to check out the part no's for the thrusts let me know and I will have a word with my source.


Richard

[Alex Blair (RIP)]

Originally posted by Richard Farrant
Bryan,

The starter you have, according to part number, definitely has two thrust washers. Do not be taken in by looking at others types, because when I went through the army list of starters, some types had no washers and others had one. It may be something to do with the construction of the Ford ones where they are secured by the through bolts. If you would like me to check out the part no's for the thrusts let me know and I will have a word with my source.


Richard

Bryan..
I agree with Richard...
The thrust washers in the starter shown are 1/32" thick so one on front and back as shown..Some such as used by Ford had only the rear thrust washer..
You would have to have some end play but no side play and not a whole lot of end play..
(Jeez,that is technical..)

[Tony Smith]

Originally posted by Alex Blair
You would have to have some end play but no side play and not a whole lot of end play..
(Jeez,that is technical..)

Stop playing around, this is serious!

[Lynn Eades]

To lube your "oilite" bronze bush (or sintered bronze) place the bush on the end of your thumb. fill it with engine oil. now put your fore finger on top and squeeze. The oil will ooze through the sides of the bush. now let it drain, and then install.
Phospher bronze and more particularly ally bronze is bloody hard stuff, and will need constant lubing or it will seize and tear chunks out of your steel shaft. Not suitable for this application.

[Lynn Eades]

Bryan those bushes in your end plates look ok to me. I'd be looking elsewhere

[Alex Blair (RIP)]

Originally posted by Lynn Eades
Bryan those bushes in your end plates look ok to me. I'd be looking elsewhere

Lynn
They may look ducky,but if there is play in them ,change them...
(They look good to me too,but....)

[Bryan]

All,

I have fitted new oilight bushes in both ends of the starter motor. The old ones were worn and the bore was over size.

So fitted new ones and there is no play between the new bushes and the armature. they are a perfict fit.

I am going to try it tomorrow and see if its fixed. I will let you know how I get on


Bryan

PS if any one needs these bushes for there starter motor let me know as I now have a spare set. I didnt know how difficault they were going to be to fit so bought spares.

[Alex Blair (RIP)]

Originally posted by Bryan
All,

I have fitted new oilight bushes in both ends of the starter motor. The old ones were worn and the bore was over size.

So fitted new ones and there is no play between the new bushes and the armature. they are a perfict fit.

I am going to try it tomorrow and see if its fixed. I will let you know how I get on


Bryan

PS if any one needs these bushes for there starter motor let me know as I now have a spare set. I didnt know how difficault they were going to be to fit so bought spares.

Jeez Bryan..
This is like waiting for the next soap opera show...I'd like to help again but have to be home for dinner..
I'll bet the wear was mainly on the Bendix end...
Can't wait to hear..Did you have to put in some thrust washers??

[Bryan]

Well I have fitted the starter motor today and when I went to engage it nothing. at this point I was not amused. So once again I dissasembled it, All I could see was the insulator around the wires on the brush were not perticualy good so I re-screen them. Made sure every thing was clean and rebuilt it.

This time I tested it on the bench before fitting all seamed okay so the real test was would it work once the bolts mounting it to the engine were tight, which was the original problem. When I went for crank it worked first time all be it a bit slow. could be the new oilites are a bit tight or a slightly under powered battery!!

So job done.

In answer to your question Alex regarding the shims. I bought some lucas shims from my local starter motor reconditioner. He did say that not all motors have shims and they are only there to remove any manufacturing tolorances. Basicly a bodge on the manufacturing side to save on scrap!.

I did try and fit the smalliest one but with it in place I could not fit the back plate on. So I decideed to leave them out and see how it goes.

Thanks every one for all your help


On a completly diffrent matter what items would ned to be changed in order to run my engine on 12 volts rather than 6 volts.

Are any of the parts in the distributor Voltage sensative? I under stand the coil. Regulator box, Solinoids and Dynamo would need to be changed but is there anything else?

Thanks again

Bryan

[Richard Farrant]

Bryan,

Glad to hear you have finally sorted the starter out. Just a thought on the slow starter, as you say, battery may not have been fully charged, but another thing, did you renew the battery leads? If so are they of the correct size for 6v. use? Cable for 6v. needs to be heavier than 12v. This is something that catches people out.

Richard

[Alex Blair (RIP)]

BRYAN....You are amazing...!!
Good work..
No ,Not all starters have thrust washers and are only used to align or take out excess end play..
Richard.is right...Connections and especially the Grounding points are critical in 6V systems..
The more grounding points and the better they are cleaned and tightened the better the electrical system likes it..Gages work better..lights are brighter .starters turn faster..etc..
I found that welders cables made the best heavy electrical wire...from battery to ground especially.
They are braided and very flexible and the current flows easily through them..Can be purchaced from any welding supply house by the foot...
Keep up the good work...
Don't feel bad either..starter bushings catch lots of people..