maple leaf rovers

[jpduvey]

Just a short query.

As Canada is a Commonwealth country, I was wondering if your armed forces used the ubiquitous Land Rover or stuck with the neighbours and had jeeps.

Tanks

Jean Du Vey

[Jon Skagfeld]

Greetings, thanks for your inquiry.

Canadian Forces have never used the Rover series of vehicles (some would say, "pity").

We have pretty well adopted the North American (i.e. "American") series of this type.

After the M 38/M38A1, M151 MUTT, CJ5, we adopted the German Iltis ("Wolverine").

We're in the procurement process of trying to replace the Iltis. Common sense would dictate that we buy HUMMVs off the shelf, but no, our Liberal, American hating government, would rather buy an off-shore or domestic piece of garbage which would suffer mean time failure rates which would guarantee Vehicle Techs a lifetime career profile.

The above is fact, regardless of which media you consult.

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

The US won't buy Canadian beef now, so why not buy some decent Land-Rover Defenders? After all L-R is owned by Ford. Assemble CKD in Oakville.

[Jon Skagfeld]

Your suggestion just simply makes too much sense, therefore it's not a viable option for our Franco run Liberal twits in Ottawa.

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

The Powers-That-Be might like to appreciate that despite historical connections and common language, the French will ban, if not already done so, Canadian beef. We have not yet done so in the UK. I hope that we don't. L-R are selling very well still around the world, and their latest Diesel engine in military form, turbo and non-turbo is proving ideal. I clocked one at 80 mph recently in British service.

[John McGillivray]

I think that one of the possible reasons that the Canadian Military dose not uses British vehicles can be summed up with one word – winter. British vehicles are not known for their performance in cold weather.
Back in 1982-83, when I was working in Oman, you could always hear the Brits bragging about their Land Rovers. On Masirah Island there was a British contractor who had about a dozen L-Rs. One morning the temperature dropped to the point that there was ground frost. The Americans and ourselves had a good laugh, because not one of the British Land Rovers would start.
The last time that the Canadian Military was looking at a British vehicle was in 1971 or 72. They were considering buying about 130 Scorpion tanks. They failed the winter trials, because they would not run in cold weather. The solution was to mate the Scorpion’s turret with a 6x6 MOWAG Piranha armoured car.

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

I think Land-Rover have covered this problem now through the good offices of Ford. They have access now to Ford's testing facilities in the Midlands of England, namely Gaydon, Warwickshire near Coventry. They can test vehicles in the same climate controlled testing centres as Ford cars. Of course all L-Rs are now diesel engined, non-turbo or turbo...does that fit in with what the Canadians will require?

[Colin]

A couple of points

The Canadian military did trial a couple of Landrover forward controls in the late 70’s early 80’s They were fairly similar to the Brit version except for a hard GRP cab that was fitted. Also the landrover was tested during the last batch of trials, which had the G-wagon selected. These two vehicles were sitting in a scrapyard in Ontario last I heard.

As far as the cold goes, the Landrover does quite well in CFB Suffield and the newer Wolf version is with the Norwegian Commando’s fitted with an insulated tarp and an extra heater, working in Arctic conditions.

I have owned landrovers for twenty plus years and have never found cold anymore of an issue with them as any other vehicle. Any vehicle that is poorly maintained and not prepared for the cold will have problems.

I think the G-wagon is good, but I would have preferred the 110 & 90 defender. I am also know that politics, budget and location of build has as much or more of a influence in the selection of military vehicles than which vehicle does the best. I would never use the military selection as a guide to which vehicle is better.

Ford has had little time to really show any impacts on Landrover. Most of the positive impacts at Landrover can be traced to Honda’s 20% ownership, which in my view pointed Landrover in the right direction. Honda got out of Landrover when BMW came in, the worst thing that could have happened. BMW raped and pillaged Landrover and then left, most of the licences for the engines will run out in three or four years, and then Landrover will have to find new ones (Honda left as they wanted to increase their share). The good news is that Ford has deep pockets and lots of R&D facilities and will be able to sell Landrover new engine & tranny technology. Hopefully Landrover will not use any of Fords frame and suspension stuff, as it is mostly crap.

[Snowtractor]

I had recently read that the G-wagon had been selected. Its surprising that they didn't go with the large Hummer. Especially because of the downgrading of armour formations and contingents. It seems that forces are increasingly using wheeled vehicles to carry bigger and bigger toys,like tow missles or 20/30 mm cannon in lieu. Therefore you would think they would want a larger vehicle to accomodate these, ie the Hummer.
Sean

[Colin]

In my opinion the main benefits the Hummer brings to the army is that it makes an excellent weapons platform and it has good side slope stability when so equipped.

The other vehicles do the other jobs that this class of vehicles is meant for as well, if not better than the Hummer. The G-wagon and Defender both fit nicely into a Chinook helicopter (2 vehicles) the hummer has to be slung underneath, which limits the range,speed of the chopper and increases the number required to put a patrol on the ground. The other vehicles also can go places a Hummer can’t because of it’s width, important in a forest or in urban combat.

The Humvee was designed to replace at least two vehicles in the US Military, the jeep and the pickup truck. Canada decided to go with different vehicles for different jobs, we use the Iveco 4x4 truck for ambulances, radio vans, section trucks and CP’s The G-wagon main role will be in the recce field and will be an improvement from the Iltis, except that it will not be a 1 for 1 replacement, I think it is a 8 for 10 ratio, which hurts because the Iltis was also a 8 for 10 replacement for the Jeep. The Brits use the Pinzauger for this role.

The Humvee is a good vehicle for certain jobs and terrains, and some have argued that the interior design helps reduced causalities from mines. I don’t know what the armour is like on the armoured version, but I think I would prefer a VBL instead.

I have heard that the British Paratroopers have used one Chinook to carry 3 Defenders 2 inside and one outside, plus kit and crew. That is a full patrol for the SAS and they can deploy right away