Canadian Humbers?

David_Hayward (RIP) · #1 06-03-07, 12:32

I know nothing about Rootes vehicles of WW2, or almost zilch. However it has been suggested that Humber Scout Cars were built in Canada and then shipped across the Atlantic to supplement British supply. Is this hokum?

Neil Ashley · #2 06-03-07, 13:40

Complete hokum I would say.

I would wonder if some one is getting confused with the Fox Armoured Car being based on the Humber Mk111.

Roger Lucy · #3 06-03-07, 13:42

I for one have seen no record of Humber Scout Cars being made in Canada. There are no references to it in any National Archives file I have seen, or even any discussion of the possibility. The Army Engineering Design Branch's "Design Record" also makes no mention of it and it discusses virtually every AFV produced or prototyped that came under the AEDB's aegis. Could the story be the result of confusion with something else? The Fox of course copied the body of the Humber Armoured car.
Roger

David_Hayward (RIP) · #4 06-03-07, 19:32

Census Numbers of Humbers assembled by Pearsons' in Liverpool include M4709359 & 4709335/ VM.4855...CAR 4 X 4 LIGHT RECCE MK III.

car_commander · #5 10-03-07, 22:55

David,

The contract VM4855 was built by Rootes in the UK. The contract was placed 13/11/41 originally for 1,000 vehicles and changed to 426 vehicles. Listed as Cars, Light Recce Ironside MkIII & MkIV. Chassis Nos 8460001 - 8460426 and WD Nos M4709001 - M4709426. Completed 7/10/42.

It is my understanding that the LRC MkIV was a MkIII with a wireless fit.

Regards,
Les.

David_Hayward (RIP) · #6 10-03-07, 23:08

Quite what they were doing in .... late 1945? at Pearson's of Liverpool I have no idea except that perhaps they had been rebuilt? I shall have a go at posting a scan tomorrow.

David_Hayward (RIP) · #7 10-03-07, 23:12

This is A BETTER shot of one from late 1945.

car_commander · #8 10-03-07, 23:40

David,

I wonder if they were being rebuilt prior to being sold off to a foreign government.

You may be interested to look at a web page that I've been putting together on the Humber LRCs.

http://www.asox18.dsl.pipex.com/eqpt.../humberlrc.htm

Regards,

Les.

David_Hayward (RIP) · #9 11-03-07, 00:00

Good suggestion, but they have clear Census Numbers on them and are amidst for example F30B Bofors CMPs after rebuild to Self-propelled units, hence the "S" prefix instead of the previous "H". Possibly rebuild for further overseas British service? Were they used in the Far East immediately post-war? And/or in the Mid-East?

See new photo replacing the awful one..any suggestions please?

car_commander · #10 12-03-07, 00:01

The only postwar British use of the Humber LRC that I'm aware of was in Palestine with the Military Police into the late forties. The RAF Regiment used the LRCs up until the 1960s in the Middle East. I am not aware of any ending up in the Far East although some must have made their way to India during the war. Humber LRCs were used in Germany certainly up until the disbandment of the Reconnaissance Corps. I do not know where the vehicles went when the regiments were broken up. Perhaps this is just an isolated vehicle favoured by a high-ranking officer?

I have attached a picture of Humber MkIII LRCs in use with the East Palestine Military Police Company in Haifa 1948.

Hanno Spoelstra · #11 12-03-07, 00:46

Les, nice site you've got there. Keep up the good work.

Quote:

Originally posted by car_commander
I am not aware of any ending up in the Far East although some must have made their way to India during the war.

Well, there's at least the remains of one to be seen in Trimulgherry, India. It's wrongly identified as a "very rare Armoured vehicle on display is ths Pre World War Two Morman Harrington Armoured Car" (granted, it has undergone a mod or two).

Source: War Relics of India

David_Hayward (RIP) · #12 12-03-07, 08:43

There were two Humbers in the photo. They look "as new"?

mudeng · #13 19-03-07, 21:08

I think the Humber armoured car and Fox are the subject of Canadian versions. Scout and Light Recce were all UK manufactured.
There is a difference in the MkIII and MkIV light recce, the MkIII had a large stowage box mounted on the rear, the MkIV had stowage bins mounted both sides, just forward of the rear mudguards. There were some changes to the vision slots on the hull front quarter panels.

I think I am correct in saying that the MkI was the "Ironsides" with open top, MkII rear wheel drive with louvred bonnet, stowage bin at rear and no vision slits on the front quarter panels.
The MKIII, rear stowage, vision slots on front quarter. 4 x 4 drive and I think fitted with runflats.
The MkIV, stowage bins on the sides, spare wheel carried on the rear plate, front quarter vision slots, and regular tyres.

There were other mechanical changes rear gear box ratios, but nothing that can be seen externally.

George

car_commander · #14 20-03-07, 00:43

George,

I think that you are getting confused between the MkIV LRC and the MkIIIA. The MkIIIA was the last version produced on Contract S1993 dated 20/1/43 for 774 vehicles.

The MkIIIA has a fully floating rear axle unique to this vehicle, it also has an improved two stage air filter. The MkIIIA has triangular 'pistol-ports' on the front corners of the hull. It carries a spare wheel and so to make room for this the large rear stowage box has been split and mounted just in front of the rear wheels. All MkIIIAs were originally stowed for service in the Middle East and as such has extra water cans, sand channel brackets, sun compass bracket and a radiator condenser.

The engine, gearbox and transfer box are identical to the MkIII.

I know this, because I own one.

Please visit my webpage http://www.asox18.dsl.pipex.com/eqpt.../humberlrc.htm

Les.

mudeng · #15 20-03-07, 10:27

Yes, I do aplogise, the MkIIIA, there was no MkIV. I got confused (easy at 60), the Humber A/C went to MkIV.

I visited the site after sending the message, and realised my mistake, I like the site very much, some nice shots and histories.

BTW is that Tom Thomases LRC at Hendon, (Fright), I visited him about the time he just got it ready, and was able to get a load of photos of the re-build, plus some excellent works drawings for the welding of the various hull plates that show all the angles of the plate joins.

Please drop me an EMail at george.dfs@virgin.net if you thinK I can add to the site.

Yours (humberly)

George.

car_commander · #16 20-03-07, 19:25

George,

Yes, the MkIIIA at Hendon was restored by Tom Thomas. My MkIIIA was restored using his vehicle as a reference.

The earlier LRC Contract Cards state MkIII & MkIV. Also the Brussels Tank Museum claim that their vehicle is a MkIV. I believe that the MkIV was a MkIII with a wireless fit (perhaps a bigger generator etc). I haven't found any evidence, as yet, to support this.

I would be interested in any information on Humbers in general and LRCs in particular.

Regards,

Les

David_Hayward (RIP) · #17 20-03-07, 19:30

Does the Humber in the '45 photo look as though it has had any work done to it please?

car_commander · #18 20-03-07, 20:03

David,

It looks like a MkIII without any extra stowage boxes etc., which were commonly fitted in use. It doesn't appear to have a radio aerial base or smoke discharger. It looks quite clean but I can't see any evidence of anything having been done to it. The radio aerial base and smoke discharger may have been removed prior to going to Pearsons. The headlight is set up for UK use. It was normally moved to the right for use in NW Europe.

Regards,

Les.

David_Hayward (RIP) · #19 01-04-07, 22:19

I had forgotten that I had various papers right next to me, and on looking up about possible Canadian-issued GPAs by the British (none found) to 30th September 1944 ... note arrangement of date... various Humbers were apparently issued I suppose by reverse issue (rather like reverse lend-lease as with the US forces but I would suggest for [essential] cash C$ in to buy grain). I wonder if these Humbers were rebuilt to be issued, sorry sold, to the Canadians?

car_commander · #20 01-04-07, 23:07

David,

It is the first that I've heard of any Humbers being sold to the Canadians. Their Recce Regts (17th DYRCH and 14CH) were issued with Humber LRCs in NW Europe. After all, they had their own 'equivalent' with the GM Otter.

Les.

David_Hayward (RIP) · #21 02-04-07, 00:06

WHEELED VEHICLES OBTAINED FROM WAR OFFICE ON REPAYMENT TO 30 SEP 44 (24th May 1945 Report)

Armd Comd Vehicles 31
Cars Scout Humber 289
Cars Light Recce Humber 120
Cars Armd Humber 56

And for those interested amongst others:

Cars Light 73
Trucks 8-cwt 20

David_Hayward (RIP) · #22 02-04-07, 00:16

I am not certain how these vehicles were accounted for in financial exchanges between the War Office and Minstry of Supply and the Canadian High Commission but would imagine that there was some form of payment, as happened as per 1941 agreement with the Commonwealth of Australia etc. I know the British were keen to sell vehicles to Commonwealth Governments as hard currency was needed for foodstuff purchases but I cannot rule out as the title suggests an off-set for British supplies from Canadian. On another thread we have that Canadian GPA with British WD Census Number which suggested to me that it was another vehicle "sold" to the High Commission.

As we know by 1946 the respective Governments agreed a final monetary settlement so I suppose it all became rather academic at that point.