historic carrier photos

[Les Freathy]

Hello to all you carrier folk
Whilst i do not own a carrier( a Matador,s enough) i do have a number of photos of different types of the vehicles.
I found it a bit difficult to know quite where to place them in the forum so with your approval started this thread for the photos. Hope you will agree if all place the historic photos here it will make life a lot easier to locate them.
Some early Dragon s from me to start the ball rolling
All the best
Les

[Les Freathy]

Two photos of MK2 Dragons

[Les Freathy]

Thought this image might interest some of you, its 1st Queens carriers entering Hamburg following the surrender

[Roddy de Normann]

Les -

Nice pics - can you see the veh T Numbers on them more clearly fm the originals ?

All grist to the mill for my T-Number project

Roddy

[Rich Payne]

These are BEF photographs showing before, during and after.

1st Div Insignia being applied during the Phoney War period.



2nd Div Carrier with crew in SD training in France prior to May 1940 It has 'Hitler's Bogey' chalked on the flank. IWMO570



This is IWM F4393 in May 1940 as the BEF moved through Belgium. It carries 3rd Div markings so would have been on the way up to the Dyle line at Leuven.



4th Div Carrier abandoned at de Panne.




Rich

[Les Freathy]

Roddy the one nearest the camera is T253177, heres anothe image on the best way to wash down your carrier sorry cant read the number on this one
Les

[Hendrik van Oorspronk]

Just found this one on Ebay.

Green Greetings Hendrik

[lynx42]

Interesting photos, I believe that the early Dragon's had a 20/25hp. Rolls-Royce engine but it was a bit under-powered. Is anybody able to comfirm this for me? Are there any Dragon photo's showing the RR engine if that's the case? thanks Rick.

Originally posted by lynx42
Interesting photos, I believe that the early Dragon's had a 20/25hp. Rolls-Royce engine but it was a bit under-powered. Is anybody able to comfirm this for me? Are there any Dragon photo's showing the RR engine if that's the case? thanks Rick.

I think you may be misled by the 20/25hp nomenclature and I've been here before elsewhere in the forum.

However, these figures, which are quoted for ALL pre-war UK car engines, and indeed sometimes the name like Austin 7 and Morris 8, they are just a mathematical figure to give a definition for annual road tax. They have virtually nothing whatsoever to do with the actual power of the engine.

This engine was an "upgrade" from the previous 20hp engine/chassis from RR hence the 20/25hp designation. It is an in-line OHV 6cyl of just under 3.7 litres having a bore of 3¼" and stroke of 4½".

Using the RAC rating formula:

D²N/2.5 where D is the bore and N the number of cylinders you will get 25.35hp.

Pre-war this would have cost you GBP25pa in tax therefore; a huge sum at the time.

I can only hazard a guess at the actual power realised by this engine, probably around 80 BHP from the performance of the large and heavy cars it was fitted into. Bear in mind that your Roller in pre-war times came from the factory as a chassis and you then took it to a coach builder like Park-Ward, Hooper or Mulliner for a bespoke body. . . . . . . . . . Hand well in pocket twice then, and a rare sight on the roads obviously.

R.

[Pedr]

Thanks Richard

There is a listing of "Rated Horsepower" for the 1942 Ford Flathead of 32.5, but I never understood how this figure was calculated.

Using your formula, I was able to calculate the same result for this engine.

So I would suppose that it may have cost 32 pound/annum for road tax on a 239ci Ford flathead.

And that on top of fuel expenses. It's a good thing that times were so good in the UK post-war.

Would be interesting to calculate the modern equivalent cost using the same formula at today's prices. I'd imagine that we'd all be horrified.

Pedr

Originally posted by Pedr
Thanks Richard

There is a listing of "Rated Horsepower" for the 1942 Ford Flathead of 32.5, but I never understood how this figure was calculated.

Using your formula, I was able to calculate the same result for this engine.

Good stuff!

The formula assumes a piston speed of 1000ft/sec, MEP of 90psi and mechanical efficiency of 75%. These assumptions were hugely wrong and outdated when the system started in 1920.

Incidentally the standard horsepower of 33000 ftlbs/min is wrong; James Watt measured a substantial cart horse and got 22000 ftlbs/mins but needing to promote his steam pumping engines simply added 50%. Nobody was in a position to argue in 1773 though.

This particular reference to 32hp in the Ford CMP manuals causes huge confusion on the "other side" of the Atlantic Ocean, however, remember even the army paid road tax until well into the war and since legally the tax disc has to be externally visible to the left of centre and within the front half of the vehicle, you will see the disc holder on MC's for instance, on the rear of the left bonnet (hood) vertical panel. This is often believed to be a modern addition but it is period correct.

So I would suppose that it may have cost 32 pound/annum for road tax on a 239ci Ford flathead.

Yes, and a huge sum then.

And that on top of fuel expenses. It's a good thing that times were so good in the UK post-war.

You have us and the USA confused!! Britain was bankrupt post war; the following items were not off-ration until the dates shown, as well I remember.
July 1948 - Bread.
December 1948 - Jam.
May 1950 - Points rationing ended.
October 1952 - Tea.
February 1953 - Sweets.
April 1953 - Cream.
March 1953 - Eggs.
September 1953 - Sugar.
May 1954 - Butter, cheese, margarine and cooking fats.
June 1954 - Meat and bacon.

Would be interesting to calculate the modern equivalent cost using the same formula at today's prices. I'd imagine that we'd all be horrified.

Your 32hp V8 would cost the equivalent now of 5 - 6 weeks wages in tax alone. Imagine how well off the few with 50hp Rollers were. . . . . . . . . . .

This system gave us the tiny engined cars, huge taxation on fuel has kept them there and to some extent we are getting back to the RAC rating system in that road tax is now scaled on engine size and CO2 output, the latter being another tax raiser since man's total output is a futile 0.0015% of what nature manages, and that is all generated by the sun's radiation but they can't tax that.

R.

[Hendrik van Oorspronk]

Found another one on ebay, but in the background is that a Dodge 1/2 tonner with dual rear wheels?

Green greetings Hendrik

[Les Freathy]

A couple from the IWM stable of carriers in the UK with the crew protection roof, at the time it was stated armoured roof but surely protection was limited
Les

[Les Freathy]

2nd

[Les Freathy]

Comments on a postcard please

[horsa]

Great shot of that T11214 carrier. If it wasn't a vintage posed shot, you'd figure it for a bunch of reenactors

Love the display of guns at the ready with the Thomson complete with 50-round drum, Boys A/T, Bren (not aiming at the same place as everyone else ) and Vickers.

What'cha think they had coming to attack them on the edge of their campsite? (notice the tent behind the carrier?)

[Mike K]

Originally posted by Richard Notton
This system gave us the tiny engined cars

Yes , and we imported many of those tiny engined British cars . Antipodean roads were not kind to them either . Just after WW2 ,The UK was desperately exporting anything it could , mainly to the former colonies . . Example: Land Rovers were shipped over to OZ by the thousands . Now , the UK LR collectors come over here to raid our scrap yards for 80" parts.

Mike

[Keith Webb]

I well remember screaming along in my series II Morris Minor at Vne of somewhere around 95 Km/h. The sound was a competition between the differential, cooling fan and big end rattle of the less-than-mighty 803cc Austin engine!

[Grant Bowker]

Originally posted by Richard Notton
Good stuff! .....that is all generated by the sun's radiation but they can't tax that.

Don't suggest it or they'll try.

[Lynn Eades]

Your fisrt photo of the carrier fitted with overhead protection is being followed by a Scout carrier. Anybody have anymore pics of them?

[Les Freathy]

Hi Lynn

Two shots of the scout carrier, i do have some shots somewhere of them in France but need to remember where i put them, pickled brain you know i blame the wine
cheers
Les

[Les Freathy]

2nd

[Lynn Eades]

On HMH 209, It's a Bren (Carrier Bren No2 Mk1) Both carrier types have armour above the mud guard on opposite sides. The Scout is essentially a mirror image of the Bren.
On the wine, As long as the prize is worth the price,.....and besides, the stuff has prolonged the life of many a Frenchman.
Thanks for the images.

[wim sikkelbein]

here's a picture from the archivia site:


Reference Numbers

Item no. (creator): WRM 509
Other accession no.: 1971-271 NPC

Additional Information

Signatures and inscriptions
"FORD MOTOR CO. - WINDSOR. This photo was taken at the first demonstration of Canadian-built Universal Carriers."

[Les Freathy]

From the IWM collection

[Les Freathy]

Found a couple of cuttings of the Royal Berkshire Regiment in training

[Les Freathy]

2nd

[kevinT]

Hello Les,

Can you read the names on the carriers from your photos? They are too fuzzy from this end.

Cheers
Kevin

[Les Freathy]

Sorry Kevin it just shows up a white ragged line
cheers
Les

[sapper740]

Originally posted by Les Freathy
2nd

Here's a training pic from Darwin dated 04/06/42