M38A1 CDN3 markings

[chris vickery]

I am now at the point of having finished up the mechanicals on my jeep to turning to the details and do-dads.
I will not even open the paint debate, as that has been decided already.
I will be doing the 3 colour camoflage.
My jeep is set up with wire cutter, gpmg moung, 1919gpmg and radio kit and antennae.
My CDN3 was a former 1 Hussars ARMD RECCE veh. Of course this was a militia regiment. I wish to know the correct veh markings for this jeep in service post 1975. I assume the Cdn flag colour decal but were there any tac markings or unit markings?
I am also interested in possibly configuring my jeep as used overseas during this same time period. Would subdued markings be appropriate and what would be correct for armd recce, to which unit(s)?
I know not 100% correct, I did take the liberty of using the militia gpmg mount with a set of 524 radios installed, although I do also have PRC77s available...

[rob love]

The M38A1Cdn2 and 3 were only fixed up in the fantasy role of a light recce as a cost saving measure for the militia back in the austere 70s and 80s. They were not used overseas in the armoured recce role.

If you want the light recce vehicle from overseas during that period, then you need a Lynx. There would have been one jeep in each squadron mind you as the OCs rover. He had all three; a tank, a lynx, and a jeep.

[Gunner]

Hi Chris:

Rob is right on the money. If you want to do a recce jeep for overseas service you`ll have to go to UN markings.

The recce symbol is one of the standardised NATO tactical signs as found here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NATO_Mi..._Based_Systems

Scroll down and you`ll find the recce (or cavalry) symbol.

The badges were painted in contrasting colour (black on green, green on black or even half and half if it was on a shift between colours- though we tended to try to keep the area for the badge all green or olive to save hassle) and were about the same size as the flag. Subdued flags were not generally in use until after the M38A1 was out of service though I have seen the odd one. We used to smear cam stick or mud on the red and white flags when on ex. The reserve CBGs were not invented until after the M38A1 was gone so the unit size indicator (also in the noted website) should be the two bars of the battalion or regiment (our Commonwealth regiments being battalion sized) and the First Hussar designator (1H) should be at the top right corner of the symbol parallel to the ground.

Hope this helps! Cheers, Mike

[chris vickery]

Thanks Guys

So, in theory, my CDN3 done as a militia jeep of 1 Hussars should have;
RED and white Canadian flag on front pass fender and rear driver bumperette
TAC sign (rectangle / slash mark for recce) on driver side front fender, rh side rear bumperette
The TAC sign should also have II 1H with it? A little confused on the relation in placement to the TAC symbol.
White hood numbers and dash number

[rob love]

No white hood numbers. They had license plates for the CFR numbers. The dash numbers should be there though.

You also should stencil the tire pressures (H and CC) over each wheel well.

There were the FMC Standing orders as well as various brigade standing orders which directed the markings on each vehicle. Never seen these orders? Well then you would be in the 98% of the NCMs that hadn't either. As a result, many of the markings ended up being dictated at the unit level. Best bet is to contact the unit's museum and observe photos of what they actually had in use if you want to see what actually existed, as opposed to the usual over-stenciling done by collectors.

Further to what Mike was saying above, the only time I can think of that a Jeep type vehicle was actually sent into a war as a fighting recce vehicle was early in the Afghan war. (Only the Liberals would send their soldiers into battle with sofskinned, unarmoured 17 year old vehicles. Thank you Conservatives for giving our soldiers the equipment they needed and deserved: RG31s, functional Leopards, AHSVS etc) We were not there as peacekeepers as in previous conflicts, like Bosnia, Cypress, or Egypt where we were "neutral" in the conflict. Yes there were shooting incidents in all those wars, but those were more anomalies rather than the expected results.

[servicepub (RIP)]

Originally Posted by chris vickery

White hood numbers and dash number

When I got mine it had the numbers, in white, about 1 inch high, below the door sill on each side. This is in addition to the number on the dash (actually, it was on the window frame and was mis-leading as the window frame was a replacement)
Clive

[Gunner]

Hi Chris:

You want you tac sign to look like this:

IMG_9389.jpg

Cheers! Mike

[maple_leaf_eh]

Originally Posted by chris vickery

I am now at the point of having finished up the mechanicals on my jeep to turning to the details and do-dads.
I will not even open the paint debate, as that has been decided already.
I will be doing the 3 colour camoflage.
My jeep is set up with wire cutter, gpmg moung, 1919gpmg and radio kit and antennae.
My CDN3 was a former 1 Hussars ARMD RECCE veh. Of course this was a militia regiment. I wish to know the correct veh markings for this jeep in service post 1975. I assume the Cdn flag colour decal but were there any tac markings or unit markings?
I am also interested in possibly configuring my jeep as used overseas during this same time period. Would subdued markings be appropriate and what would be correct for armd recce, to which unit(s)?
I know not 100% correct, I did take the liberty of using the militia gpmg mount with a set of 524 radios installed, although I do also have PRC77s available...

Only one RT524 is required, with a PRC77 manpack on another frequency. According to the militia organizational chart in the manual of the day, a troop of 5 or 7 jeep "callsigns" would have operated forward with squadron HQ which had two Chev 5/4 command post trucks trailing not far behind. One for the main CP and one for step up or alternate. If necessary for rear link, a lucky unit had a ground plane antenna or a 20' mast. The squadron commander should have had his own rover, but if there weren't enough jeeps he would have just had the CP. There were never enough jeeps, or he would have chosen a '74 Pattern jeep.

[Ed Storey]

Aaarrggg! I am pulling my hair out, it is M151A2....!

Besides being correct, M151A2 is fewer characters to type then Pattern 74.

[rob love]

74 pattern jeep, rollover jeep, or disposable jeep. These were the terms used by everyone in the military I ever dealt with back then. M151A2 was only seen in the technical publications, and the term MUTT was totally unheard of.

[45jim]

Gents, this symbol is not a wheeled or tracked based one, its based on the task performed. When the Coyote replaced the Lynx the tac symbol did not change since the task did not. And since we no longer have actual Recce Regiments which could use the pure Recce symbol, just embedded Recce Squadrons in an Armoured Regiment, this modified symbol is appropriate.

As a "Recce Dog" in the Strathcona's we taught the Militia jeep Recce every summer. This started during the M38A1's final years (and the end of the '74 pattern jeep) with the switch to the Iltis. We used to paint out the tac symbols at the beginning of the course (they were not worthy) and then upon successful completion of their Recce Crew Commander's course they could paint them back on.

Your right its a pride thing, but once back at the unit...who knows?

[rob love]

I'll add my 2¢ to the discussion on the tac sign. In my teen years I was light recce with the FGH. If memory serves, we used the oval with the one diagonal bar. It also seems to me that we had the two small bars on top, and put the initials of our unit to the right of the symbol. Pretty much all the Western reserve units did it the same way.

[chris vickery]

I recently found out some more info on my jeep and am awaiting some pics and other details. I contacted the ! Hussars Regimental Museum and was put in contact with guys in the know...
Apparently, my jeep was used as the poster vehcile for the recruiting poster and pamplet in the 1976 to 1980 period.
It was also used on a major international ex in the US as well as various exs at CFB Meaford. I am excited to know that there is at least one original pic and that there may be more! How many of us have actual picture documentation of our mvs in service?
When I obtain them I will post.