CMP Assembly

[servicepub (RIP)]

Time to start a new thread on this.
Results of my recent foray into War Diaries at the Canadian Archives;

Serial : 3302, File Title: No. 1 Ordnance Depot, Royal Canadian Ordnance Corps (formerly No. 1 Detachment, Royal Canadian Ordnance Corps).
This Unit was based in London, Ontario. The location was chosen as being central to most automotive makers. They were not involved in vehicle assembly.

Serial : 3303, File Title: No. 2 Ordnance Depot, Royal Canadian Ordnance Corps (formerly No. 2 Detachment, Royal Canadian Ordnance Corps).
This Unit was based in Toronto, Ontario as an Ordnance depot and dealt with all items but no vehicle assembly.

Serial 657 - No. 1 (Overseas) Detachment, R.C.O.C.
Not involved in vehicle assembly.

Serial 658 - No. 2 (Overseas) Detachment, R.C.O.C.
Involved in storing and delivering A and B vehicles. Undertook the training of drivers for this function. Was not involved in assembly of vehicles.

Serial 3408 - Central Mechanisation Depot, London , Ontario. Assembled vehicles in Canada (initially for the 3rd Cdn Inf Div.). Over 4,000 vehicles assembled.

Serial 5920 - No. 1 Canadian Equipment Assembly Unit. Located at Borden, Hants from 18 October 1943 to June 1944. Assembled A and B vehicles in the UK. Started with 8 vehciles first operational day and within 30 days was assembling over 100 per day on average. Daily total was restricted by lack of boxed vehixles and inability of CMHQ to arrange for same to be delivered in quantities required. Over 7500 vehicles were slated for assembly. A full examination of this file may reveal actual quantities. 3 lines were operating and at one point the lines operated from 0630 to 0330 (21 hour days for two shifts) with soldiers expected to work 56 hour weeks. A comment in the War Diary states that this work was a continuation of that initiated by serial 229 (Essex Tank Regt). An examination of the Essex Tk Regt War Diary shows that, prior to embarkation they provided 35 men to assembly in Canada. I have not found where they were involved in the Uk - yet.

[Mark W. Tonner]

Originally posted by servicepub
Serial 5920 - No. 1 Canadian Equipment Assembly Unit. Located at Borden, Hants from 18 October 1943 to June 1944. Assembled A and B vehicles in the UK. Started with 8 vehciles first operational day and within 30 days was assembling over 100 per day on average. Daily total was restricted by lack of boxed vehixles and inability of CMHQ to arrange for same to be delivered in quantities required. Over 7500 vehicles were slated for assembly. A full examination of this file may reveal actual quantities. 3 lines were operating and at one point the lines operated from 0630 to 0330 (21 hour days for two shifts) with soldiers expected to work 56 hour weeks. A comment in the War Diary states that this work was a continuation of that initiated by serial 229 (Essex Tank Regt). An examination of the Essex Tk Regt War Diary shows that, prior to embarkation they provided 35 men to assembly in Canada. I have not found where they were involved in the Uk - yet.

Two questions Clive:

1) - would you happen to know under which General Order the Authorization for Serial 5920 - No. 1 Canadian Equipment Assembly Unit was published.

2) - according to General Orders for the Canadian Army - Serial 229, was the Serial allotted to the The Ontario Regiment (Tank) - under GO 135/39 and 30th Reconnaissance Battalion (The Essex Regiment), the designation under which the Essex Regiment (Tank) was called out on active service under, was allotted Serial 1424 - under GO 309/42 - is the quote above regarding 'serial 229 (Essex Tank Regt)' your's, or is that how it's written in the War Diary of No. 1 Canadian Equipment Assembly Unit.

Cheers

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

Clive, I have a major problem here with what you have just mentioned on the one hand and the evidence from TO THE THUNDERER HIS ARMS which was written with the benefit of 2 (O) Det RCAOC diaries evidently. Specifically about the attachment of part od 2 Det to Slough in August 1940, which must have been to the 'new' CMD. Also we know from various sources that Canadian Army personnel were involved in vehicle assembly at the original CMD, Southampton, plus the activities in Aldershot which were from memory undertaken by 1 Det. In addition there was the Salvage Unit at Borden, Hants. which I believe cleared out the Southampton plant and recovered as many vehicles as possible that could be recycled as spare parts. I reminded myself that there were also Canadian personnel under an officer that operated the 'new' CMD in Slough..Captain?? Smith I believe. These would have been 2 Det personnel.

The 2 Det War Diary stated according to the book that various officers and men were sent to the CMD after the bombing started in Southampton in the evening of 30 November 1940, and were involved with clearing away vehicles that were stored outside.

The file on 2 Det that I obtained a copy of, and threw away in due course, was just full of personnel requirements and that was it! So, now I am mystified!

Thanks by the way for checking the files. The 1 CEAU file might be worth copying if it is not too large.

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

Clive, I am intrigued by the information on the Central MD...this is news to me and I wondered if this has been discussed before or public knowledge?

When you refer to vehicles being 'assembled' I am bound to ask what sort of vehicles...imported such as Jeeps or diverted export vehicles boxed up?

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

Clive, how big are thr files for Serials 657 and 658 please? I am thinking of paying for a Xerox copy of each as the information therein might enable me to add to what I already know and then...perhaps a book???

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

I have looked to my thesis which has authorities in it for information on Army personnel being used in the Southampton CMD.

Men to staff the Plant were in very short supply, British civilian manpower being stretched, and the assembly operations were badly under-staffed: the aircraft industry had top priority on personnel. The official solution was to draft in Canadian Army personnel to cope: the troops camped next to the Plant as Stan Ellis had envisaged at the end of the previous year [i.e. 1939...Stan Ellis had called for Canadian Army personnel to be drafted in].

Norman Coffin wrote in 1980 [in the GM Limited plant staff magazine] that he was a civilian employee in the Plant from 1939. After war was declared and most of the Plant was taken over as the C.M.D., he worked on assembling trucks for the famous Canadian Regiment, The Princess Patricia’s Canadian Light Infantry [‘P.P.C.L.I.’] that was part of the 2nd Infantry Brigade, 1st Canadian Division. He also states that during this time they were having Air Raid Warnings six or seven times a day, and as a foreman, was a Shelter Steward. He had to see the personnel in his shelter get in and stayed in. He was also a member of the A.R.P. at night, and groups of them would take turns of a fortnight on duty and a fortnight off. They slept in the front office and in the morning had their breakfast and went straight to work at 7.30 a.m.....

Mr. Norman Coffin thought that many of the Canadian soldiers employed in the Plant were later killed in the Dieppe Raid

[Mark W. Tonner]

David/Clive;

Just a thought, I wonder if the War Diaries for Serial 1027 - No. 1 Base Ordnance Depot, R.C.O.C. (Later Serial 1027 - No. 1 Base Depot, R.C.O.C. and still later Serial 1027 - No. 1 Central Ordnance Depot, R.C.O.C.) or for the sub-units of No. 1 Base Depot, R.C.O.C.:

- 1027A - HQ No. Base Depot, R.C.O.C. (later Serial 1027A - HQ No. 1 Central Ordnance Depot, R.C.O.C.)

- 1027B - No. 1 Sub-Depot, R.C.O.C. (later Serial 1027B - Mechanical Transport Techninical Store Company, R.C.O.C.)

- 1027C - No. 2 Sub-Depot, R.C.O.C.

- 1027D - No. 3 Sub-Depot, R.C.O.C.

- 1027E - No. 4 Sub-Depot, R.C.O.C. (later Serial 1027E - Vehicle Company, R.C.O.C.)

- 1027F - No. 5 Sub-Depot, R.C.O.C.

would shed light on vehicle assembly?

Cheers

[servicepub (RIP)]

David,

I do not pretend to be knowleldgeable about this subject, I just happen to be the person who read PART of the war diaries.
I think that some things should be put into perspective; manufacture of vehicles in Canada (in excess of 900,000) for which the Army was called upon to assist in the assembly of several thousand in the early stages of the war; shipment of 'knocked down' vehicles to the UK where, again, the Canadian Army was required to assist in assembly - possibly at two different times 1940 and again in 1943? - and at two or three different locations - Slough, Southampton and Borden. Is this correct?
Time permitting I wil return to Archives and read through the whole files but this involves hundreds of pages and I only get there for an hour/week.
I also understand the frustration you must be feeling. You are looking for specific information but, in many cases, the Unit diarist is a proponent of 'less is best' with many daily entries limited to weather and personnel deployments. There will be records somewhere (probably DDME records) which will show types and quantities but these are yet to be found - although there is a CMHQ file which deals with vehicle assembly but this appears to have disappeared in the past couple of years.
As to copies. I don't like to spend other people's money. What may be of interest to me could be of no value to you at all and at CDN$0.40/page the cost of photocopies mounts very quickly.

Mark
1. I do not have the relevant GO and the Serial is not listed in my book.
2. Mea culpa, the reference to Serial 229 is that found in the War Diary, it was my error to say that the Unit was the Essex when I saw that every page was marked Ontario Regiment - in fact the diary even makes a comment about receiving brass "OR" shoulder badges which the Regiment did not find acceptable.
I will be looking at the Essex Regt War Diary also.

[servicepub (RIP)]

Reference: RG24 , National Defence , Series C-1 , Reel C-8356
File : 8186-3 , Access code: 90
File Title: Secret and Confidential Subject Files, Army - Assembly of mechanical vehicles in Canada
Outside Dates: 1940-1943
Finding Aid number: 24-14

Reference: RG24 , National Defence , Series C-1 , Reel C-8356
File : 8186-3-1 , Access code: 90
File Title: Secret and Confidential Subject Files, Army - Assembly of mechanical vehicles in Canada - Movement of vehicles to and from assembly plants
Outside Dates: 1940-1942
Finding Aid number: 24-14

Reference: RG24 , National Defence , Series C-2 , Volume 12185 , Reel T-17477
File : 1/ASSEMBLY VEHS/1 , Access code: 90
File Title: Priority of assembly of VEHS [vehicles] for CDN [Canadian] Army in the U.K.
Outside Dates: 1943/05-1943/07
Finding Aid number: 24-15