Thoughts

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

Moderator's note: this thread was split from my C15 restoration:

In answer to Bob Carriere's comments about the chassis back in August 2006, it is my theory that GM Canada took a civilian pick up truck chassis of probably US origin and modified it to suit the CMP cab. The C15 chassis measures 36" between the outsides of the frame rails whereas the C15A and every other Chevrolet CMP measures 34" between the outsides of the rails.

This is something that I have mulled over myself for some years now. However whilst Oshawa may have used components from a pick-up, the 101" wheelbase is arguably a pure Ford "design", from the COE 011W or 091W, and the other chassis wheelbases conform with other COE Fords. This is not surprising as it was Sid Swallow's department in Windsor that designed the '40 Ford 15-cwt GS trucks for the DND and then the # 11 CMP trucks/lorries. The CMP designs were all forward-control in British parlance, to conform with WD Spec. 36E which was the last one issued in early 1939 out of Woolwich. If you check the civilian Chevrolet wheelbases you will see that the 1/2 tonner was 113 1/2" in 1940 and 115" 1941-5. The shortest COE lorry was 109 1/4".

I should add here that it was found that a COE was required by 1938, and that heavy duty components were required. Whilst no doubt the 8-cwt CMPs could get away with civilian style components, the heavier designs needed components from the heavy lorry parts bin.

However if you want more definitive proof to chew over, let's go back to the 50 1938 15-cwt GS trucks ordered from Oshawa by the DND, that were the direct predecessors of the 1940 Ford GS trucks. They were officially Model 1531, or 3/4 to 1 ton Chassis with Flat Face Cowl with a 131 1/2 inch wheelbase. However the known build plate off a survivor reveals that they were a bitza, actually Model 1752, namely 2 1/2 ton COE Chassis with Cowl, 108" wheelbase! This was near the Morris-Commercial / Guy Ant chassis lengths which were also rated at 15-cwt. In other words setting down for the future the use of civvy style chassis.

However these trucks were a dead-end in the evolutionary process. I will post a photo of a 1940 15-cwt Ford GS and you can see that Ford of Canada adopted the forward-control (from the US COE Fords) which was then taken further for the CMPs.

[Bob Carriere]

Thanks David..... any know survivors or pictures of the batch of early 50 trucks from 1938...????

That information is very useful when we are trying to source replacement parts from antique dealers listing civilian truck parts.

Took me a while to realize the door handles of my cab 11 were actually Ford commercial truck handles of the late 30s... which makes sense when you comsider my cab 11 being built in May 1940 from the readily available civilian parts bin.

Bob C.

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

The one in Vimy House is:

General Motors of Canada
csl 17-52 model 15-31
Serial number - 8153102808
Engine number -T1270622
Body serial number -DND 6
Trim -Special
Paint FC 26


This is a photo of two of them...there is another photo in Dr Gregg's book as well.

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

This photo is from the Westminster Regiment in 1940.

I must add this extract from the DND papers please as it does make sense and explains a lot. It relates to discussions in early 1938 about the suggestion of Fords producing 25 15-cwt GS trucks, and Chevrolet 26, although Fords understandably backed out, but when ahead with the '40 Model successors.

Jolley wrote a note of the 31 January meeting to Carr on 7 February. Jolley learned that the conversion of a 1938 Model Ford normal-control chassis presented difficulties in that 15-inch brake drums all round precluded the possibility of fitting 16-inch wheels to the front axle, though they could be fitted to the rear axle. The solution was to use the 1937 front axle on the 1938 chassis, but this would complicate connecting the brake mechanism to the front axle and would require special parts. Ford had stated that a new Forward-Control [C.O.E.] 101-inch wheelbase was to be produced in Canada from the early spring, and a sample of the chassis had been inspected in Detroit: with a few modifications it would lend itself to use as a 15-cwt. truck. The U.S. version of the chassis would have 15-inch brake drums on the front axle, though Canadian trucks would use 14-inch on the front and 15-inch on the rear. If this brake arrangement were finally approved then this would allow 16-inch wheels. Ford were somewhat averse to proceeding to production of the 15-cwt. Trucks using their normal chassis as a basis whilst the Forward-Control chassis was pending. The use of the Normal-Control chassis required modification to the driveshaft, frame and controls which would not be required if the Forward-Control chassis was required. Fords did state that for export purposes in quantities, they would certainly use the 101-inch Forward-Control chassis as a much cheaper truck could be produced than with the Normal-Control. Ellis, the Service Manager, was clarifying the situation regarding the exact date on which the 101-inch chassis would be available in Canada, and also whether the 14-inch brake drums would be provided in front. Ellis intended to call at the D.N.D. on Monday 7 February and would then be in a position to make a definite statement as to what they were prepared to do regarding production of the 15-cwt. Trucks for the order then under consideration.

Carr advised Caldwell on 8 February that Ellis had called on him together with M.H. Holden of Ford of Canada the day previous. Ellis stated that recent developments indicated that it was impossible to use the 1937 front axle on the 1938 chassis because the brake linkages could not be connected. This precluded using the 1938 Normal-Control chassis for 15-cwt. Trucks with 16-inch wheels. In any event the Ford representatives stated that Ford was averse to proceeding with Normal-Control chassis for use with 15-cwt. Trucks as the Forward-Control 101-inch wheelbase chassis was to be produced in early spring in Windsor, and this chassis would lend itself to conversion to a 15-cwt. truck with only minor modifications with the exception of the front axle for taking 16-inch wheels. Ellis said that further investigation had indicated that Ford did not wish to provide 14-inch brake drums, which would take 16-inch wheels on Forward-Control. 101-inch chassis: this because the load carried on the front axle of Forward-Control chassis was quite high and it had been considered necessary to retain the 15-inch brake drums on the front axle for commercial purposes. Ellis further stated that the only way by which 16-inch wheels could be provided on 15-cwt. chassis by Ford of Canada would be to build special 14-inch brake drums with front axle. The cost of providing the special tooling to produce the 14-inch assembly would be approximately $35,000.

Ford thus had the now-classic 101" civvy COE chassis, although it was only in 1940 that Windsor produced a COE 101" civvy chassis....the 1938 and 1939 COE 101" chassis, models 811W and 911W were produced in Dearborn! GM of Canada had their 108" chassis as the shortest COE design, so you can see that Fords set the chassis basic design and GM followed suit.

[cliff]

Hmmmm this one looks similar to the one on the far right.

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

That's a 1940 Number 11 Cab on the right, and that's a photo of a rare # 11 Cab Ford [?] ex-British supply, either assembled in the UK then shiped out to Alexandria, or one sent direct then issued to the AIF and of course shipped back to Australia. This also happened with those issued and sold to the NZEF and Indian Army though did the IA ship their vehicles back or were they used in Europe?

[cliff]

Originally posted by David_Hayward
That's a 1940 Number 11 Cab on the right, and that's a photo of a rare # 11 Cab Ford [?] ex-British supply, either assembled in the UK then shiped out to Alexandria, or one sent direct then issued to the AIF and of course shipped back to Australia. This also happened with those issued and sold to the NZEF and Indian Army though did the IA ship their vehicles back or were they used in Europe?

David that is the one I owned 22 years ago in New Zealand. The remains of it and another the same now lie in a quarry in Northland NZ. It would now be a labour of love to restore them as both have deteriorated badly due to limestone dust.

Cheers
Cliff

PS> I sold this one at the time so I could keep a WC51 Dodge weapons carrier I had not knowing just what it was I had.

[Max Hedges]

the 11 cab in David's photo looks like it has a chev front bumper bar. Cliff is there nothing on your old bltiz that is worth saving
Max

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

1. Cliff, I agonised over the photo as I was sure that it was a NZ registration, but thought that the truck must have in fact been in Australia. As I said the same thing clearly applied to the vehicles supplied to the NZEF as the AIF, but I have no idea about Indian Army vehicles yet.

2. Well spotted Mr H...I am sure that's a Chevrolet badge. Here's a better pic together with another Chevrolet I thyink.


The Ford nearest the camera says I think:

INF. (M.G.) T.C.
40- 1 -8

It appears that the 50? 1940 MODEL Ford 15-cwt G/S trucks may have had the first 1940 DND numbers, so would have been marked up as Census Number 40-1-1 and up.

[Max Hedges]

David they both have chev front bumpers that protect the radiator. Ford have the radiator cap sticking out of the radiator shell, chev have their cap under the hood.
Max

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

Thanks Max! You of course know I am no expert on identification or any other thing for that matter!

[cliff]

Originally posted by Max Hedges
Cliff is there nothing on your old bltiz that is worth saving
Max

Yes there is Max and if I was in NZ I would have recovered both of them by now but I am, of course, here in Queensland now and health wise unable to do the work of recovery anyway.

The photo below shows the trucks early last year and I believe they are still there now. Top photo is my old one and the bottom one is the other wreck. I have not seen this one in person but both still have most of the interior intact. These photos were taken by my niece who part owns the quarry now with her Uncle on her fathers side.

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

I just have to admire the patience and the skill exercised in thr resto job!

Just one question on topic: to what extent was it practice post-war in civvy use to use non-standard engines from the Chevy/GMC or Ford/Mercury range? As regards Fords I know that Ford Britain had wartime V-8s rebuilt under contract until about 1951, and I suppose GM Ltd did much the same with Chevrolet and to a lesser extent GMC engines. By then however new-build vehicles were available.

[cletrac (RIP)]

David, in Canada most old farm trucks that had rebuilt Ford of Canada engines installed used the 255 Merc engines to get the increased horsepower. Today a 255 is just as easy to find as a 239. I've got several of the Mercs.
The same thing happened with Chev and the 235s.

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

Thank you for that. Ex-WD/Ministry of Supply flathead V-8s were plentiful in the late Forties here but I have no information about Chevrolet engines. By the mid-Fifties there were very few Chevies being imported but jump ten years and those that were donated their V-8s to oval racers, drag racers, etc. as the cars had rusted. Contrast that with the Ford engines that were ideal for custom cars, racers etc.