Australian 5 spoke carrier wheels

Tony Smith · #1 14-12-05, 03:45

After much discussion in This thread, it is time to leave David's thread alone and start afresh. It now seems that "D&B" cast on the 5 spoke wheels is the maker's initials for Davies and Baird, a foundry in the Melbourne suburb of Brunswick (in WW2).
Other foundry markings found on Roadwheels and track links include:
Roadwheels
HAD: Hadfield's Foundry, Sydney
NZR: New Zealand Railways, Hutt Workshops, NZ
SEW: State Engineering Works, WA

Track Links
KC: ???
BK: Bradford Kendall
TS: Thompson & Scougall
MALCO: Malleable Castings, Petone, NZ
MP: Mason & Porter's, Auckland, NZ

Any other markings, wether you can ID them or not?

Wayne Henderson · #2 14-12-05, 07:37

Track link

SE. State Engineering Works, W.A.

Lynn Eades · #3 14-12-05, 08:15

All the L.P.1 (specific) parts are stamped N.Z.R.H as opposed to just N.Z.R
(Cast items are also N.Z.R.H marked)

Richard Farrant · #4 14-12-05, 15:38

Quote:

Originally posted by Tony Smith
Roadwheels

Any other markings, wether you can ID them or not?

Tony,

A LP carrier was at Beltring this year, and I note it had "Sunshine" boldly cast on the road wheels. This will no doubt be the Sunshine farm machinery makers who were situated outside Melbourne and were part of Massey Harris at some point in time.

Richard

Bob Moseley (RIP) · #5 15-12-05, 23:22

Well done Tim Tam
This now raises the question as to whether they still have the casting moulds for the wheels.
Bob

Tony Smith · #6 28-08-08, 13:50

Futher to the comments in the link to David's thread above, here's a poser for you. I have looked at LP2 Carrier 533 today. 533 was built by Victorian Railways in 1941. This carrier was restored over the last 3 years, by a person who managed to buy it off the original owner, who himself bought it off the Army in the later half of the 40's. That is is, it has been owned by one owner for 50 years, and he said he parked it up in 1950 when it was no longer running well.

The reason I mention it, is that it had ALL it's original road wheels. The two front Idler Return wheels had perished beyond use and were replaced, but all others were retained and returned to their original locations. ALL 8 wheels are 5 spoke! The original owner never changed a thing and only had a couple of years use before parking it up in a barn. (

) The wheels bear builder's castings "D&B" and just a plain "S".

Rob Beale · #7 02-09-08, 11:04

Lynn could this be Hutt workshops in Woburn? Its unlikely to be the Hillside workshops.

Rob

Lynn Eades · #8 02-09-08, 13:02

New Zealand Railways Huttshops (Hutt Valley, Upper Hutt)

Jared Archibald · #9 31-01-09, 14:37

G'day everyone,

I was recently reading a book on Australian and US involvment in the air war against Japanese forces over northern Australia and the Netherland East Indies.
I was suprised to find a image of a number of Australian carriers that were about to be loaded onto ships to be taken to Timor. This occured and the convoy set off in mid Feb 1942. It only got halfway when it came under air attack and returned to Darwin. The ships were subsequently sunk in Darwin harbour during the first enemy attack on Australian soil on the 19 Feb 1942.
In 1959-60, Japanese salvors returned and cut up the wrecks and shipped them back to Japan as scrap. There are apparently a couple of these carriers still on the bottom of the harbour which are regularly dived upon -the water is always murky so I have never seen a photo.
Anyway, if you look at the pic (although not very clear) it can be seen that this carrier has 5 spoke wheels on the bogies, but a six spoke type on the idler. This picture was taken in Jan or early Feb 1942 so the carrier couldn't be more than about a year old at the most (or much less). I always assumed that the 5 spokers were made by a later contractor and used as spares later in the war - this picture seems to refute that.
The hull on tracks I have has six of the eight road wheels as 5 spoke types also, with six spoke wheels being on the single bogies only. They seem to be fairly common in the Top End.
The book the image came from is called "Nor The Years Contemn" by J.D. Rorrison. For those interested in a really well researched and readable book on a little known facet of Australian wartime history - I recommend you obtain a copy.

Jared

Tony Smith · #10 02-02-09, 02:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jared Archibald

Anyway, if you look at the pic (although not very clear) it can be seen that this carrier has 5 spoke wheels on the bogies, but a six spoke type on the idler. This picture was taken in Jan or early Feb 1942 so the carrier couldn't be more than about a year old at the most (or much less). I always assumed that the 5 spokers were made by a later contractor and used as spares later in the war - this picture seems to refute that.

Jared

Hi Jared. Good on ya for reincarnating an old thread. If you look at the pic in post #30 of my link "This thread" mentioned at the top of this thread, you'll notr that that pic is captioned Circa 1941, so I think it's certain that these 5 spoke wheels are an EARLY variation, not late.

Tony Smith · #11 02-02-09, 02:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jared Archibald

G'day everyone,

I was suprised to find a image of a number of Australian carriers that were about to be loaded onto ships to be taken to Timor. This occured and the convoy set off in mid Feb 1942. It only got halfway when it came under air attack and returned to Darwin. The ships were subsequently sunk in Darwin harbour during the first enemy attack on Australian soil on the 19 Feb 1942.
In 1959-60, Japanese salvors returned and cut up the wrecks and shipped them back to Japan as scrap. There are apparently a couple of these carriers still on the bottom of the harbour which are regularly dived upon -the water is always murky so I have never seen a photo.

Jared

See This thread for some pics and info on the USA Transports Meigs and Mauna Loa in Darwin harbour. There is a pic of one of the carriers, can't make it out but IS THAT a 5 spoke wheel on the coral encrusted wreck? Check it out for us when you pop down and check the hull number, but watch out for Crocs!

Can't have been too much scrap removed from the wrecks, the ships seem fairly intact, and I think they may have been a war grave?:

Jared Archibald · #12 02-02-09, 13:58

G'day Tony,
I think you will find that the image of the coral-encrusted carrier is one that is on the wreck of the Thistlegorm - it is definitely not in Darwin Harbour. We have an 8 metre tidal range and mangroves around most of the coastline which equates to murk, mud, and filthy water almost all year round. I have never seen a good underwater photo taken in the harbour at any real depth.

When the Japanese salvors came in 1959-60, they were not allowed onshore and worked off a large floating work platform. They dove in full diving suits (like the pearlers) and cut the ships up with torches. The first ship worked on was the fuel tanker 'British Motorist'. The bow and stern were cut off and the tanks pumped full of air and she was refloated as a hulk. This was then made seaworthy (sort of a giant unpowered floating box) and this was used as the receptacle for all of the steel removed from the other ships. It was towed back to Japan full of scrap.
The other ships were not salvaged totally - they were cut off about 6 feet above the mud they were resting in. This means we still have 'wrecks' in the harbour but they are really just the very bottoms of them, not the ship as such. Along with the sunken ships went most of the 80 previous years of NT industrial heritage as the locals went out and pillaged whatever could be moved and dragged back to town and sold to the salvors. All the worn out steam locomotives from the war, the two 9.2 inch counter-bombardment guns from East Point, etc, etc, etc. (but back then it was junk which you could make a little money out of, not heritage....). As a result there is very little left of anything up here, despite persistent rumours to the contrary.
As a goodwill gesture the salvage company had crosses and other religious objects made from some of the bronze salvaged and this was presented to one of the new cathedrals that had just been built in Darwin.
The wrecks were all salvaged with government permission, including the USS Peary - a four stack destroyer - that was sunk with the loss of 80 American lives. What little is left is now considered a War Grave - but this was not a major concern at the time.
I would love to ID the carriers in the harbour, but it is not an easy task.
Jared

Hanno Spoelstra · #13 02-02-09, 15:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jared Archibald

We have an 8 metre tidal range and mangroves around most of the coastline which equates to murk, mud, and filthy water almost all year round. I have never seen a good underwater photo taken in the harbour at any real depth.

When the Japanese salvors came in 1959-60, they were not allowed onshore and worked off a large floating work platform. They dove in full diving suits (like the pearlers) and cut the ships up with torches.

Diving in muddy waters, cutting up ships stowed with ammunition with torches . . . what a job!

H.

Tony Smith · #14 02-02-09, 16:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jared Archibald

G'day Tony,
I think you will find that the image of the coral-encrusted carrier is one that is on the wreck of the Thistlegorm - it is definitely not in Darwin Harbour. We have an 8 metre tidal range and mangroves around most of the coastline which equates to murk, mud, and filthy water almost all year round. I have never seen a good underwater photo taken in the harbour at any real depth.

I would love to ID the carriers in the harbour, but it is not an easy task.
Jared

During the "Dry", visibility in the harbour is reputed to be 14m. See Darwin Dive Centre for a couple of pics, but not much of what "We" want!

Jared Archibald · #15 03-02-09, 04:22

G'day Tony,
yep, the site may say that visibility is 14m but that may be on one or two days of the year, only in the Dry Season, and only if you are extremely lucky.

If you check their entire site there are very few pictures at all - even in their "Gallery" (and most of these are not 'clear'). The pics in the WW2 Wrecks section are the best I have yet seen and have probably been accumulated over the past couple of decades, not years.

If you read their account of finding Huxley Reef in News and Events (and this is outside of the harbour) they mention 'cafe latte diving' and 'night diving in the middle of the day'. That is much closer to what it is usually like.
But that is all we have so we deal with it as best we can.

On a different note, are you attending Corowa?. I have managed to get a return ticket so will be there - yippee! i am looking forward to it immensly.

Jared