AIF shipment of vehicles to Mid East '40?

David_Hayward (RIP) · #1 15-01-04, 13:31

Thanks to Max Hedges for the loan of an excellent book on the history of the Australian Army up to early 1941.

However, you all know that we have re-written if not written history in this Forum because we have proven that the AIF, and probably NZ Expeditionary Force in North Africa/Mid-East were equipped with BRITISH order CMPs, which were of course used in later campaigns. The question I have has still not been answered. That is, when the AIF elements in the UK left from around December 1940 for Port Said/Alexandria, did they have with them vehicles? The book explains that the AIF were lent vehicles on the drive up to the Libyan frontier, some being convoyed from Palestine. I conject that the loan was of British-owned [nominally] vehicles and that the loan became 'permanent'. This would explain why the trucks had WD Census Numbers in advance of British Supply-Mechanical orders for Australia et al delivery. I believe that the first Australian CMP orders from Canada were in June 1941, which were of course distinct from British Ministry of Supply contracts for Australian and other Dominion forces which then applied their own Census Numbers.

For those interested, the first S/M Contract for CMPs placed numerically was 2002 in June 1940. From memory the contracts then ran to 2008 that included loans to the AIF. The last known [to me] Contract under which the AIF used British-owned CMPs was S/M 2029 for C.8s and 2030 for F.8s, though I query whether S/M 2037 for Chevrolet/Ford were ever issued to Dominion forces with British Census Numbers. As this was a 1942 delivery I discount it for the moment. EDITED....S/M 2029 also included Dodge D8A chassis, some for the UK and some for 'Egypt' delivery. Therefore these trucks were also issued and lent on the same basis. We also know that US trucks were also delivered to the Mid-East direct and were likewise issued/lent...S/M 2007 & 2014 for White Model 920 18-ton Transporters [and White-Ruxtell 922] and Mack EXBX to 2014.

David_Hayward (RIP) · #2 15-01-04, 13:36

Can I just ask on reflection whn the AIF and perhaps NZEF left the UK did they take vehicles with them or would they have been shipped seperately?

It is obvious that at some point the AIF, and I believe the NZEF and Indian Army were lent vehicles for the Libyan campaign to start with, but did some of the forces have their own trucks as well? I have no idea whether the 120 vehicles driven from Palestine where sourced from the UK, or Australia, or more likely from trucks acquired from General Motors Near East in Alexandria as per Trans-Jordan Frontier Force, RAF, etc.

Mike K · #3 15-01-04, 15:23

Hi David

The questions you pose are rather interesting . I am not really qualified enough to answer them .

But , I thought this pic would interest you . AIF 6th div soldiers stand beside two Morris Commercial PU's in Palestine .

Incidently , the reg. numbering system on British vehicles issued to Australian units in Palestine is rather weird and unique . Maybe you can help . The numbers are displayed with a "0" prefix , seen in this pic . My first PU had the number 0 36?0 on the bonnet , very faded , but it was just readable . There are many other AWM pics with the "0"numbers on vehicles , but ONLY in Palestine .

Do you know what these strange numbers mean . Maybe the British civilian authorities in Palestine required this ?

The pic is AWM number PO2037.020

Mike

Mike K · #4 15-01-04, 15:52

This time a Morris CS8 in Palestine with AIF 6th div , again the weird "0" number is present . This CS8 also sports its British census nr. on the bonnet , possibly Z 2324541 ?

AWM pic 24319

Mike

David_Hayward (RIP) · #5 15-01-04, 18:11

I enhanced the pic as best I could and thought it says Z 3524841, but could be 3324841...or 5524841/5324841 although I cannot find any Census Number listing...it could be that the number was Middle East-allocated though. Have no cle about the "0" though...a '41-2 Chevrolet that my dad photographed in Jaffain '48 has Arabic on the number plate.

Anyhow, it looks to me as though the 120-vehicle convoy was possibly British trucks....British-sourced and British-owned that, as per the C8,F8. FATs, C15, F15, C30, F30, etc. were lent to the AIF but retained British WD markings.

Tony Smith · #6 16-01-04, 06:29

In his Profile book on Field Artillery, Mike Cecil states that a batch of Australian built (assembled) Marmon Herrington 3/3A Gun Tractors were despatched to the Middle East in Jan 1940, seeing service in Egypt, Libya, Palestine and Syria. He also states that all Aust. artillery regiments were equipped with these vehicles at one time or another, presumably indicating they were possibly quite common in Arty columns in Libya, where 9 separate Australian Field Artillery Regiments saw service.

David_Hayward (RIP) · #7 16-01-04, 12:15

I have had no luck so far with finding any likely files in the National Archives in Kew, London, nor the ANA, online. That does mean that there are none!

I suspect that the vehicles issued to the forces in the Mid-East were officially lent, as with naval ships. The ANA files indicate that the AIF 'hired' vehicles that then had accidents, but I cannot get my brain around the thought of an official hiring of trucks in Egypt and Libya as these accidents that led to the files in the ANA were all in Australia.

I shall however keep looking, and am particularly pleased that I found a file in Kew relating to delivery of vehicles to Slough, namely the second Canadian Mechanization Depot, which was in the former Citroen Cars Limited factory. This may have some information of importance or nothing....watch this space.

Max Hedges · #8 16-01-04, 21:32

All he could remember is that they brought their carriers back to Australia from the middle east and then to New Guinea for the defence of Port Moresby, he was not sure about any trucks though

Max

David_Hayward (RIP) · #9 16-01-04, 22:09

Max, I suggest that the same principle worked for carriers and soft-skins.

Max Hedges · #10 18-01-04, 04:49

Ive looked up in fathers battalion history and towards the end of Febuary 1942 they were issued with 21 carriers. During the same period the transport platoon was brought up to strength with new vehicles inclueding a number of 3 ton chev trucks which were used to move them to Suez.

Max

David_Hayward (RIP) · #11 19-01-04, 19:20

I found this shot on the NZ Library website. Is it a 30-cwt or 3-tonner? The Census Number is a Mid-East allocated British one, and if I could id the truck I might guess the Contract...could be a # 11 Cab from the S/M 2003 order for example if C30/F30 or S/M 2019 if C60L/F60L # 12 Cab [the body is surely the all-steel one...and the chassis lwb?]. Anyhow, this tends to prove my point that the AIF, and NZEF, plus I think the Indian Army, were issued with British trucks on loan...and that loans became permanent.

Max Hedges · #12 19-01-04, 22:43

David to me it looks to be a 3 ton,cab 12.

The c30 cab 11 that we have here still has it's british census number as well as a Aussie disembarcation number from the middle east which I believe cannot be traced, would be good if it could be traced.

Max

David_Hayward (RIP) · #13 20-01-04, 08:09

Max, thanks mate. I reckon it's to Contract S/M 2019. As to the C30 was it:

'Engine number R3,747,383 BLOCK CAST DATE July 14 1941 L 4449560 S/M. 2003 8 in Australia # 11 Cab
around serial # 1844104500'? There are at least two definite other survivors from British Contract S/M 2003, including one now in Norway. Serial # 1844103869 was W.D. # L 4449597. We now know of 30 definite serials of 1941 C30s.

Max Hedges · #14 23-01-04, 00:42

David I can get some more of the books in the series on the Australian army as they have some in town. They would be mainly on Pacific area, at this stage they did not have the book on Greece, Crete. But I will look else where as I havent got that one myself
Max

David_Hayward (RIP) · #15 23-01-04, 00:47

Thanks mate!

David