Dodge 15-cwt or 3-ton swb?

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

If necessary I can scan the pic but a query has arisen as to whether the Tippers on P. 26 of the Diamond T 980/981 book photd in Liverpool bearing census numbers L 6206992 etc. to S/M 6351 are T222 D15 trucks or as per the census listing D60S T-110-L units. The photo shows that they have round cab hatches. I have no idea how you tell the D60S apart from the D15!!

[gordon]

I've never seen a D15 with a roof hatch, but there's always a first time.

Basic difference is size. The D15 is a small truck, really no larger than a current Ford Transit van, and the D60 is longer, current Ford Cargo 7.5 gross size with notably bigger wheels.

I could probably identify it from a pic...?

Gordon

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

http://clubs.hemmings.com/clubsites/chevytalk/dodge.gif

Any ideas please? Cheers.

[Richard Farrant]

David,
The trucks in the photo must be D60S and not D15, because census number starts with L, meaning Lorries over 1 ton. I know this does not always run to rule, but look at the photo in Barts original WW2 directory on page 216. It shows probably an early version with civvy wheels and twin rears where as your photo is on military tyres and divided rims. The roof hatch could probably date from middle war period onward. The D60S is the short wheelbase 3 tonner. The tipper body appears slightly different in construction between the two photos, I imagine a different body manufacturer.

Richard

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by Richard Farrant
The trucks in the photo must be D60S and not D15, because census number starts with L, meaning Lorries over 1 ton.

Agree, the tipper was based on the D60S; the D15 was only built in GS and water truck form.

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

Was there a D60S Water Truck?

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by David_Hayward
Was there a D60S Water Truck?

David, my references (read: Vanderveen) only list the following variants of the Dodge T-110 series:
- 15-cwt D15 (128.5" wb): GS and Water Tank
- 3-ton D60S (136" wb): Dump Truck
- 3-ton D60L (160" wb): GS

[gordon]

I agreee with the other comments, D60S tipper.

You may recall my suggestion a while back on another thread that the D15 chassis was barely able to put up with the weight of the standard cargo body, you wouldn't put a dump body on a D15 chassis...

[Dirk Leegwater (RIP)]

Originally posted by David_Hayward
http://clubs.hemmings.com/clubsites/chevytalk/dodge.gif

Any ideas please? Cheers.

David,

More info: " Dodge ISPL, WM-4171"

Mvg. Dirk

http://home-3.worldonline.nl/~dlgwtr/Fotos/Dodge01.jpg

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

I have as you all know a copy of the Dodge Trucks military listing with all models and serial numbers, etc. but it doesn't mention contracts. Note the Canadian DD- model series, and also FL-4.

Sorry about the mistake Dirk...it was late at night and I was wanting to hit the sack and I just didn't read the name properly. Hope that you were not insulted!

[Dirk Leegwater (RIP)]

Originally posted by David_Hayward
I have as you all know a copy of the Dodge Trucks military listing with all models and serial numbers, etc. but it doesn't mention contracts. Note the Canadian DD- model series, and also FL-4.

David,

The name Hanno sounds good but my name is Dirk !
Have you need more : Sply-Mech. numbers ?
Dodge T-112, 116"wb = SM-2462
Dodge T-110L-4,-160"wb = SM-2458
Is that what you need ?

Mvg. Dirk

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

Yes that's what I need please, Dirk, Sir. I have added the infroamtion to my listing of all known British Dodge and now Fargo contracts/census numbers. However, the DD-1 and DD-2 were evidently Canadian civilian Dodges.

FL-4 though was a FARGO 2-TON T-119G-160 SERIALS # 9,588,494 TO 9,589,206.

I had not thought about Fargo before but I have noticed that there were some entries in the Census book for "Fargo"..
any thoughts please on the following:
WD NO. FROM WD NO. TO CONTRACT
[“SM” = “SUPPLY MECHANICAL”] TYPE/COMMENTS MODEL/
SERIALS
Z 4781243 4781892 SM 2272 TRUCK 15 CWT 4 X 2 WIRELESS...US Fargo 3/4 ton FK15 T-115-20?
Z 4577078 4577107 SM 2584 TRUCK 10 CWT 4 X 4 COMMAND RECCE NOW BELIEVED US DODGE T211-WC15
Z 5884938 5885851 SM 2585 TRUCK 15 CWT 4 X 4 US DODGE T207-WC9?
Z 5873015 EX US FORCES TRUCK 10 CWT 4 X 4 COMMAND RECCE DODGE T211?

Note that early military Dodges were supplied through Fargo Division, so this make sense.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by David_Hayward
FL-4 though was a FARGO 2-TON T-119G-160 SERIALS # 9,588,494 TO 9,589,206.

I had not thought about Fargo before but I have noticed that there were some entries in the Census book for "Fargo"..

Your mention of Fargo reminded me of the thread on the Fargo-badged D60L on the Old Forum . So the truck Maurice Donckers came across in Belgium last year is not a D60L accidentally badged Fargo but "simply" an FL-4 2-ton truck?

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

Yes that would be a Canadian 1945 Model Fargo FL-4, 2-ton Model T-119G-160, or whatever the wheelbase was, SERIAL # 90,061429 to # 90,065,000.

[gordon]

The DD series trucks were the one ton 120 and 133" wheelbase trucks.

One T116 133" panel is shown in one of the Vanderveen books, but it does look very much like an American built one ton LWB panel.. It has the left hand mirror normally only found on LHD trucks, six lug disc wheels, and 1941-up front sheetmetal

Gordon

[gordon]

This will be a DD2 then maybe ?

http://www.gwim2.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/T116.jpg

It's a special one way or the other. Those wheels were not used past 1940, but the front sheetmetal on this is 41-up. They normally only came with one drivers side mirror which suggests to me this was US built LHD in Detroit or LA, although Vanderveen says 'built for Canadian army'

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

The DD2 was originally a 1940 Model US De Soto Model, in three wheelbases including -120 and -133 wheelbase variants, Model T-97-, but the Canadian DD2 was 1942 onwards...then became the T-116-120 or -133. So, were these rehashes of 1940 chassis with 1941-on front ends ....and then were they in fact built in Detroit FOR Canada/Windsor? Note that they were not listed in the Candian Government order listings so were a regular commercial model in theory. Some credence for this is is that the US model was the WD, Model T-116-120 or -130! This was a 1941-45 Model not 1942...so as we had with the British order trucks this could be a US-build for Canada, railed across the Detroit River.

[gordon]

The second 'D' in the model code was normally the one ton designation. US civilian trucks were TD, VD, and WD for 1939, 1940, and 1941-up respectively.

The US TC, VC, and WC CIVILIAN trucks had light suspension all round. They upped the suspension rating on the rear a little for TD 15, VD 15 and WD 15 hybrid 15 cwt trucks, and went for heavier rear ends and different rear axle types for the proper TD 20 and TD 21 one ton trucks, though the front suspension and steering stayed the same.

The 1941 US one ton truck had a different axle and wheel type, so that image definitely isn't a WD 20 or WD 21. My best guess is that it represents all the remaining production of the 1939 and 1940 type six lug disc wheel axles stuck under very early 1941 production bodies (basically September 1940 on) because of the front sheetmetal configuration.

In the US the one ton truck was available as a 120 or 133 inch wheelbase pickup, but the panel van was only available as a 116" half ton or 133" one ton, i.e there was no 120" one ton panel van.

Gordon

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by gordon
They normally only came with one drivers side mirror which suggests to me this was US built LHD in Detroit or LA, although Vanderveen says 'built for Canadian army'

Quite possible as left-hand drive vehicles were supplied for "domestic use" (i.e in Canada).

- Hanno

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

Windsor-built or Detroit-built and then sent across the River? However the Canadian trucks were 1942 Models according to the serial # listing. Are there any more S/M British contracts known by model please? I forgot to mention that Dirk's SM 2462 was a new one on me and not mentioned in the Census Listing, possibly because it was in fact for CEYLON [6 units], MOMBASA and SOUTH AFRICA delivery.

Another poser: SM 2398 was for 1-ton 120" w.b. 4 x 2, for New Zealand, probably 1942 Models as well. Was this also for DD2 T-116-120 trucks?

[gordon]

Another poser: SM 2398 was for 1-ton 120" w.b. 4 x 2, for New Zealand, probably 1942 Models as well. Was this also for DD2 T-116-120 trucks?

As per my comments above these would be 120" wheelbase 4 x 2 pickups (there was no panel van variant) although there's an off chance they were cab / cowl chassis.

Gordon

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by Hanno Spoelstra
Your mention of Fargo reminded me of the thread on the Fargo-badged D60L on the Old Forum . So the truck Maurice Donckers came across in Belgium last year is not a D60L accidentally badged Fargo but "simply" an FL-4 2-ton truck?

Ad found on MilWeb:

"Rare 1945 Canadian Dodge (Fargo) D60l 3 Ton 4x2
Needs restoration but very complete and original, price 4000,- Euro sent e-mail fore pictures
0031 774 773389
Paul <pcaris@wxs.nl> 16 April '03"

As the seller lives in the Netherlands, I would not be surprised to learn this is the very same Fargo FL-4 Maurice saw in Belgium last year....

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

The papers I have show that the London County Council ordered 200 Dodge tippers for bomb damage clearance, although 100 were then taken over and used by the RAF for airfield building. Delivery was to be 75 per month from April 1941...any ideas which Dodges they could have been please? If they were in service with the RAF perhaps a photo exists? I am conjecting a civilian-wheeled T-110-L variant.

[ted angus]

Somehow picked up this thread according to A.P. 3090 the Dodge tippers in RAF service were T.110L 4x2 3 ton. hope that helps.
TED

[ted angus]

And as if by magic I do believe this is a piccy of one ??

TED

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

That pic coincides with a plate I have a copy of for either T-110L-S or -13. The former is a 135 in wheelbase with Eaton rear axle and the latter D60S/DD again with Eaton axle.

[gordon]

It is parked in front of an MH-Ford Snogo ( the blowing gear is quite distinctive, and although similar to the gear on the FWD version it is slightly smaller and lower to the ground )

While I'm typing, in case anyone doesn't know, the engineering code for these vehicles was T110L, the 'L' being part of the engineering code and nothing to do with designating a long wheelbase.

So, that truck would be a D60S ( for short wheelbase ) but the engineering code would still be T110L.

[ted angus]

Originally Posted by gordon

It is parked in front of an MH-Ford Snogo ( the blowing gear is quite distinctive, and although similar to the gear on the FWD version it is slightly smaller and lower to the ground )

While I'm typing, in case anyone doesn't know, the engineering code for these vehicles was T110L, the 'L' being part of the engineering code and nothing to do with designating a long wheelbase.

So, that truck would be a D60S ( for short wheelbase ) but the engineering code would still be T110L.

I bet you would like to see the snogo ??

TED

[gordon]

Owned one and that was enough. It was actually the one that spent many of its years at Perth Airport ( Scone ) though with the blowing gear parked elsewhere. It is now back together and was on its way to Australia last time I heard.

I quite liked the bigger FWD versions, which were common years ago but have now all vanished. Last one I saw was at the Kirriemuir woodyard twenty years back. I'm more into driving over snow than blowing it out the way, and there is an expensive new snow vehicle project in the offing unless someone else buys it and saves me a load of grief - can't say what or the sale would be sure to fall through.

[Keith Orpin]

Just found a couple of pictures taken in India in 1945 of 2 x D60 L's. (Both vehicles served with the Royal Signals, Dad was a Driver/Mech)
Regards
Keith