Priest Kangaroos in Italy?

[Bob Potter]

Would this be an appropriate place to ask questions regarding Kangaroos? The Priest modification not the marsupial.

Bob :

[Geoff Winnington-Ball (RIP)]

We'll run that over to the Armour forum, Bob... ask away and we'll tell you what we know!

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by Bob Potter
Would this be an appropriate place to ask questions regarding Kangaroos? The Priest modification not the marsupial.

Sure, this is the place ask! See http://www.1cacr.org and click here for the Priest Kangaroo in particular.

Regards,
Hanno

P.S.: have a look at New Life for a Ram Kangaroo too.

[Bob Potter]

And I can even spell, "Kangaroo." I can. My fingers often fail me however.

Thanks guys; I'll be back.

Bob

[Bob Potter]

From the Sherman Register, I believe, I have some info on Priest Kangaroos in use during the Italian campaign. There is a photo of one with wading trunks. That one I want to model, with one alongside it without trunks. I will examine the photos more closely, but in the interim, here goes:

1. Markings -- Any suggestions form unit or other "tribal" markings? Did one unit drive them and they were attached to troop units as required?

2. Painting -- When the conversion was completed, was the thing repainted in British spec colors or touched up with US OD?

3. Marks -- were these M7's or M7B1's? The photo I have suggests M7's.

Thanks, Hanno, and all who serve here. I really admire your work on that Ram 'Roo. If I ever get to the Netherlands, I will have to find it.

Bob

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by Bob Potter
From the Sherman Register, I believe, I have some info on Priest Kangaroos in use during the Italian campaign. There is a photo of one with wading trunks. That one I want to model, with one alongside it without trunks.

Glad you remember where you saw it

Priest Kangaroo with British troops in Italy, 1945:

Source - read more about Kangaroos here.

I will examine the photos more closely, but in the interim, here goes:

1. Markings -- Any suggestions form unit or other "tribal" markings? Did one unit drive them and they were attached to troop units as required?

I don't know about Priest Kangaroos in Italy, but those used in Normandy were devoid of any official markings (possibly remains of artillery markings).

2. Painting -- When the conversion was completed, was the thing repainted in British spec colors or touched up with US OD?

Read the Appendix F CONVERSION OF PRIEST TO TROOP CARRIER. Repainting is not mentioned. In Normandy there would not have been enough time to properly repaint them, possibly in Italy there was. By that time Olive Drab was already adopted by the British, wasn't it?

3. Marks -- were these M7's or M7B1's? The photo I have suggests M7's.

M7's, correct.

Thanks, Hanno, and all who serve here. I really admire your work on that Ram 'Roo. If I ever get to the Netherlands, I will have to find it.

Just let me know and I'll take you there!

Regards,
Hanno
Sherman Register

[Mark W. Tonner]

Hi Bob;

Regarding your question: 1. Markings -- Any suggestions form unit or other "tribal" markings? Did one unit drive them and they were attached to troop units as required? - I've done some digging and this is what I've found:

Notes on Kangaroo APC's used in Italy 1944-45:

There were two principal troop carrying vehicles which became the responsibility of 9th Armoured Brigade; the Kangaroo and the Landing Vehicle Tracked (L.V.T. Mk IV).

At the end of October, 1944, 4th Hussars joined 9th Armd Bde and were given Kangaroo Armoured Personnel Carriers. The Kangaroo was a battle tank with its turret and ammunition stowage removed to allow as much room in the hull as possible for carrying infantry and their battle equipment across fire swept ground. There were various types, General McCreery had been so impressed by reports of their use in northern France that he gave orders in October 1944 for local conversions to be carried out. The Sherman was used first; later the more roomy hull of the Priest, self-propelled gun, was converted. The War Office promised to send out the equivalent of an infantry battalion lift from the United Kingdom, but failed to meet its obligation. In the end all 8th Army's armoured personnel carriers had to be produced in its own R.E.M.E workshops. For the Spring offensive, R.E.M.E modified 75 Sherman and 102 Priests, giving a lift of some four infantry battalions. A battalion lift of Kangaroos (4th Hussars) was ready for 8th Army's December offensive but conditions were unsuitable for their deployment. They were first used in 56th Division's successful though brief operation in January 1945 (4th Hussars).

The Armoured Personnel Carriers were operated by the 4th Hussars and the 14th/20th Hussars. The organization finally agreed to in March 1945 was:

4th Hussars:

- one APC Squadron: 53x Sherman Kangaroos
- one APC Squadron: 56x Priest Kangaroos
- one Armoured Squadron: 17x Sherman gun tanks

14th/20th Hussars:

- one APC Squadron: 40x Priest Kangaroos
- one Armoured Squadron: 28x Sherman gun tanks

4th Hussars trained with Kangaroos at Peasro. On 17th March they moved forward to 5th Corps to train with the British 56th, 78th and 8th Indian Infantry Divisions. 14th/20th Hussars joined 2nd Polish Corps on 26th March and trained with 43rd Gurkha Lorried Infantry Brigade.

From 10th April, 45 onwards, the 4th Hussars, along with the 2nd Armoured Brigade and 38th (Irish) Infantry Brigade, along with supporting arms, formed "The Kangaroo Army".

From photos I've seen of the Priest Kangaroos of the 4th Hussars, lifting units of the 38th Bde, it looks like "A" Sqn was the Priest Kangaroo equipped squadron of the 4th Hussars.

Hope this answers some of your questions.

Cheers

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by Mark W. Tonner
I've done some digging and this is what I've found:
Notes on Kangaroo APC's used in Italy 1944-45:
*snip*

Excellent info Mark! Where did you find this?

Cheers,
Hanno

[Mark W. Tonner]

Hi Hanno;

My sources:

Primary:

- HISTORY OF THE SECOND WORLD WAR, UNITED KINGDOM MILITARY SERIES, THE MEDITERRANEAN AND MIDDLE EAST, VOLUME VI, VICTORY IN THE MEDITERRANEAN PART III, NOVEMBER 1944 TO MAY 1945 - Chapters 18, 20 and Appendix 6.

- CLEAR THE WAY! A HISTORY OF THE 38th (IRISH) BRIGADE, 1941-47 - Chapter 19

Secondary:

- A NOBLE CRUSADE, THE HISTORY OF EIGHTH ARMY 1941-45

- ALGIERS TO AUSTRIA, A HISTORY OF 78 DIVISION IN THE SECOND WORLD WAR, 1942-1946

- THE HISTORY OF THE ROYAL ULSTER RIFLES, VOLUME III

Other:

- Various Regimental/Unit Histories
- Various books and publications regarding the war in Italy

Thats about all of them Hanno, that I can think of at the moment.

Hope this helps.

Cheers

[Mark W. Tonner]

Hi Bob/Hanno;

I've did some more digging and have found the following info:

I have found the Markings used by the 4th Hussars in Italy late 1944 through 1945.

9th Armd Bde was made up from Oct 44 onwards, of:

3rd Hussars (left the Bde Dec 44)
4th Hussars
7th Hussars

The Unit Serials (on Red AoS Patch) used by the 9th Armd Bde were:

Bde HQ: 50
3rd Hussars: 51
4th Hussars: 52
7th Hussars: 53

9th Armd Brigade's Formation Sign was: a standing white horse on a light green background. (example in attached image)

The picture I've attached, is of a Kangaroo of 'A' Squadron, 4th Hussars, lifting troops of the 2nd London Irish Rifles, April, 1945.

If you look on the picture itself above the sample AoS 52, you can see the '52' on the carrier. The same goes for the sample of the 9th Armd Bde Formation sign, above it on the carrier itself, you can just make out the horse's outline.

I haven't be able to determine what colour the 4th Hussars Tac Signs were (ie: the 'A' Sqn triangle on the carrier). Did find though, that the 4th Hussars did not carry names on their vehicles.

Having looked at the photo posted earlier by Hanno, I'd have to say that, that carrier also belongs to the 4th Hussars. If you look closely at it, it bares the same markings, as the image I've attached to this post.

Anyways Bob, hope this helps regarding your question about Markings, and for you Hanno, the information on Markings itself.

Cheers

[R Mark Davies]

Hi Mark,

I was just reading Delaforce's 'Desert Rats 2' as it happens, and on p.199 there is a photo of a DD Sherman, photographed on 30 April 45 and said to be a tank of the 7th Hussars (7th Armoured Brigade). However, on the turret side, there is the horse badge!

Now, the 14/20th Hussars had transferred to 7th Armoured Brigade for this operation, so do you suppose that this was one of their vehicles (in which case, they clearly had DDs as well)?

Cheers,

Mark.

PS A largely unrelated question - 7th Armoured Brigade apparently used several squadrons of DD Valentines in 1945 (7th Hussars had 'A' & 'B' Sqns equipped with DD Vals and 'C' Sqn with DD Shermans). Do you know if these were actually used in combat? If so, do you know what armament they had (2pdr, 6pdr or 75mm)?

[Mark W. Tonner]

Hi Mark;

In regards to your: "said to be a tank of the 7th Hussars (7th Armoured Brigade). However, on the turret side, there is the horse badge!"

From 22 Oct 44 to 8 Jul 45, the 7th Hussars were part of the 9th Armoured Brigade, that would explain the 9th Armd Bde's Fmn Sign on the turret side of their DD's.

Note: 7th Hussars were part of the:

- Light Armoured Brigade from Sept 39 to 16 Feb 40
- 7th Light Armoured Brigade from 16 Feb 40 to 10 Apr 40
- 4th Armoured Brigade from 10 Apr 40 to 3 May 41
- 7th Armoured Brigade from 7 Jul 41 to 5 Nov 43
- Div Troops - 10th Armoured Division from 5 Nov 43 to 25 Apr 44
- GHQ MEF from Apr 44 to Sept 44
- 9th Armoured Brigade from 22 Oct 44 to 8 Jul 45
- 7th Armoured Brigade from 8 Jul 45 to 31 Aug 45

In regards to your: "Now, the 14/20th Hussars had transferred to 7th Armoured Brigade for this operation"

The 14th/20th Hussars were never part of the 7th Armoured Brigade between 1939-1945, they served in the Indian Army from Sept 39 to Jan 45, first has part of the Indian 2nd Armd Bde from Jul 41 to Jan 42 and than with the 252nd Indian Armd Bde from Jan 42 to Jan 45, at which time they became 8th Army Troops(under 9th Armd Bde for Admin/conversion/training) from Jan 45 to Aug 45.

7th Hussars: - converted to D.D. tanks in Oct 44, upon joining 9th Armd Bde and were organized as follows:

1x Squadron 16x Sherman D.D. tanks plus 1x Valentine D.D. tank
1x Squadron 16x Sherman D.D. tanks plus 1x Valentine D.D. tank
1x Squadron 16x Sherman D.D. tanks plus 1x Valentine D.D. tank
11x Stuart light tanks

14th/20th Hussars: - converted to Kangaroo Armoured Personnel Carriers in Jan 45, upon joining 8th Army Troops and were organized as follows:

1x Squadron 40x Priest Kangaroos
1x Squadron 28x Sherman Gun tanks

Hope all of this answers your questions. The armament carried by the 3x Valentine D.D. tanks of 7th Hussars, is unknown.

Cheers

Mark: Follow-up ref armament carried by Valentine D.D.'s - overall there were 650 Valentine Mk III and Mk VIII coverted to D.D. tanks - the Mk III mounted a 2pdr main armament and the Mk VIII mounted a 6pdr main armament. The Mk XI mounted a 75mm main armament, but I've only ever seen a sketch of a Mk XI D.D., never came across any info regarding their conversion or use has D.D. tanks.

Cheers

[Colin Williams]

The 4th Hussars war diary discusses use of the Kangaroos in 1945 and can be found here - http://www.queenshussars.com/4thhussars/1945wd.htm

[Bob Potter]

I am now building, thanks to your help, two Priest 'Roos for an Italian campaign diorama. I am attaching wading trunks to them, inspired by Hanno's lead photo. I have Zaloga's book, "US Armored Artillery," which has some photos and a side view of an USMC Priests.

My question. Do any of you have any other photos that show the rear view of the attached trunks? I can wing it, and I am using thre Italeri USMC Sherman trunks, but photo or drawing reference would make my historian's mind rest a bit easier.

Thanks for all of your help.

Bob

[R Mark Davies]

Mark,

Thanks very much for the information - much appreciated.

Mark

[Mark W. Tonner]

Hi Mark;

No problem, glad I could help.

Cheers

[Bob Potter]

Just wanted to let readers here know that I do appreciate the effort you have made to answer my questions. The 'Roo models are advancing smartly; in fact, your imput has urged me to do much more "correcting" than I intended. When I figure out how to work my digital camera and how to post photos, I may show you what came of all this.

If I read all the material above correctly, there was no instance during the Italian campaign in which Canadian troops were carried in or operated alongisde 'Roo-borne infantry. True or false. I have a number of ideas already for Canadians in Italy in case my observation here is correct.

Oh, and this came up before. Canadian movement routes in Italy were NOT marked with "Maple Leaf Up" signs?

Thanks again.

Bob

[Mark W. Tonner]

Hi Bob;

You asked: 'there was no instance during the Italian campaign in which Canadian troops were carried in or operated alongside 'Roo-borne infantry.' , the answer to this is two fold, first, your right there was no instance during the Italian Campaign when Canadian troops were carried in, or operated Kangaroos.

There was only one instance where there was Kangaroo borne Infantry involved anywhere near Canadian operations, and this occured during the clearing of the Granarolo Salient (3-5 Jan 45), when on 4 Jan 45, a British Kangaroo borne Battalion, was involved in the crossing of the Naviglio Canal, by elements of the British 56th Infantry Division, to the left of the Canadians (see attached map).

Hope this answers your questions Bob.

Cheers

[Andrew Tomlinson]

Bob (and others)
If you have produced the diorama yet, please may we see the pics ?! Shall I send in my e-mail address ?

I have nearly finished mine with a raised front structure over the old 105 position. I retained the inside floor level, fitted a 3 piece nose too and early suspension from a Grant model. Did you keep the floor level in ?

I have a good rear end pic of the extra rear sponson box fitted on the drivers side, incorporating a rear light.

I used a spare VLS wading trunk, but also unsure as to the accuracy of it. I think these and M10s only had the one rear trunk fitted. No rear fold down shield.

I had believed the triangle on the side was for the South Africans ?

Of course these were different from the NWE fit, which often had the extra side 'armour' from the deep wading mods.

The deep pulpit does not have to be removed from the Italeri model, but a 3 piece nose has to be fitted as they were ex-M3 chassis.

Any further info on interiors is welcome.

Regards
Andrew

[Bob Potter]

Andrew and others who kindly helped,

My 'Roo models are stalled, for no real reason. Andrew, you did about what I did I think. I swopped the one-piece front drive covers (I am working on two) with ones from DML M4A4's I bought super-cheap. I filled in the main gun mount as did you. I used the trunks from the Italeri USMC Sherman, and suspension units from Tamiya's M3 Grants (with the CORRECT wheels). We both, I think made the same mistake and used the Priest kit floor unit complete. As I read the engineer document on Hanno's Kangaroo page, we should have left the center cover over the drive shaft in place. I think that it what caused me to get frustrated and quit, even though I intend to stuff both with figures, most of which are in fact modeled if not painted. Even though they are wrong, I used the Priest headlights and breush guards, although I did place them in the correct location. I will camouflage them with steel pots or other detritus.

If you check Dana Nield's Canadian decal sheets (and other sources, but Dana has done massive research and he shares it) you will observe that the big triangle on the superstructure sides is in fact the company marking. In the Italian theater, it seems that these were frequently filled in in black or very dark (slate?) grey. The Springboks did not use 'Roos, as previous posts on this threads will attest.

I did find Richard Doherty's "Clear the Way! The History of the 38th Irish Brigade in World War II." (Well, actually, I didn't. Two of my students listed it on a bibliography of a major research project they are doing. It was not pertinent to their work but they were amused when I went nuts to learn of its availability.) Anyway, "Clear the Way" has a very useful chapter called "The Kangaroo Army," which speaks of the tactical employment of these vehicles in Italy.

Thanks for tweaking me on this. I may get back to work on them. There is no smile that shows guilt, but how's this? :

Bob

[Andrew Tomlinson]

Bob

Thanks for the info. My Italian and NWE are ready to finish, but amazingly I too was stopped by the floor plate retention dilemma. Althought the Mod instruction states they were to be removed, I'd already glued mine in - on the basis that if you look at the pics they are as you say, crammed with troops, all on an equal level !!! As I also had no transmisssion tunnel / info, I thought I'd leave it as an ad hoc mod, and wait for the flak

Do you need a scan of that back box mod ? One side only.
It also shows the remains of the deep wading frame.

I actually used a sad old Grant chassis, and inserted the Italeri base into it ! OK, slightly narrower, but will be hidden internally by sandbags etc. Looks really good though.

The odd pics only show the trunking at the rear, so I'm going with that - it was harder to remove I think, also the top one may not have been needed for shallow wading and to allow troops to access.

Andrew

[Andrew Tomlinson]

Bob Potter
Please confirm if you received my lenghty e-mail of 6th. Somehow your incoming and my outgoing has disappeared. Thanks.

Regards
Andrew

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by Andrew Tomlinson
Of course these were different from the NWE fit, which often had the extra side 'armour' from the deep wading mods.

A deficiency of the first production version of the M7 105 mm HMC was that the ammunition stowed vertically in the ammunition racks was partially exposed above the side armour. On later production versions this was rectified by adding hinged armour plates which could be raised on the sides and the rear of the fighting compartment to protect the ammunition.
In British/Canadian service this deficiency of early M7s was rectified by adding fixed armour plates to the hull sides. The plates were fitted using bolts, slightly overlapping with the original side plates. The thickness of the plates is unknown, although thicker than the hull sides is unlikely. (On British Cruiser Tanks many sections of 14 mm plate was used, this is only slightly thicker than the 0.5" hull side so that would make a good guess.)

Courtesy of Peter Brown, a drawing of the additional armour with deep wading kit goes attached.

Hope this helps,
Hanno

[Andrew Tomlinson]

Hanno
I am amazed - after all these years someone has found the 'missing link' - much sought after ! Wow !

Do you know what the scrap dwg is of the unlabelled item on the right - a bracket, i.e. where it goes?

I wonder if all our NWE Kangaroos were so fitted, even if they had the extra hinged side armour ?

And how did the troops climb out of them ?

Were any bench seats ever fitted as may have happened in Italy, per the instruction, over the Transmission ?

And was the floor plate removed ?

Thanks again.

Andrew

[Andrew Tomlinson]

Hanno / Bob
My next realisation is that the dwg shows no need for the inner wading trunk - as I'd read - as they vented through the cut out in the back additional metal screen !

So the drop-down rear may well have been removed, for access also. It may show on that pic of the Italian one with the Weasel in the rear. Very hard to make it out though !

Andrew

[Pat Holscher]

Originally Posted by Hanno Spoelstra

Sure, this is the place ask! See http://www.1cacr.org and click here for the Priest Kangaroo in particular.

Regards,
Hanno

P.S.: have a look at New Life for a Ram Kangaroo too.

I realize this post was made a long time ago, but I was recently looking into Kangaroos a bit and found this to be great stuff, thanks for posting it.

[K713]

Hello
i have this photo Of the Canadian troops on Montreuil sur Mer / France / the September, 4th 1944

Source: http://www.casimages.com

http://nsa26.casimages.com/img/2011/...3609524790.jpg

[Mark W. Tonner]

Originally Posted by K713

Hello
i have this photo Of the Canadian troops on Montreuil sur Mer / France / the September, 4th 1944

Sorry, this is not a photo of a Kangaroo, the vehicle in the photo is a Sherman ARV I (Armoured Recovery Vehicle, Mark 1).

Cheers

[K713]

Ah ok !!
thank you Mark !!

[K713]

Originally Posted by Mark W. Tonner

Sorry, this is not a photo of a Kangaroo, the vehicle in the photo is a Sherman ARV I (Armoured Recovery Vehicle, Mark 1).

Cheers

Hello Mark
On my photo the Sherman is a Kangaroo, and not ARV because the ARV is for the Towing...
the first photo of the thread represent a Sexton ... ?